Sometimes it takes a lot of calcium citrate to help an old hen build an egg shell

[Jlwennerberg9]

For calcium to cause problems, mostly with the kidneys, it would need to be given in large amounts for a very long period.

Two years ago, I had another EE hen Ethel, Wheezie's brooder mate, who had an even worse egg issue - double ovulation and release of two eggs each cycle and very poor shells or no shells. She was eggbound from this once, and she was getting calcium citrate every day for two months until her ovulation cycle finally reset and she's been laying one egg per cycle with good shells ever since.

If your hen is laying eggs with questionable shells or no shells, she would benefit from a citrate tablet each day until her eggs are coming out normal quality. Then she can go back to relying on oyster shell for her calcium needs.

I realize this thread is a few years old so I apologize but hoping I can get your advice on what seems to be a very similar issue I am having. Both of my EEs, just shy of 2 years old, began laying soft shelled or shell-less eggs on and off for a couple months now. More recently, on a few occasions, they have laid an egg only a mere 12ish hours from the last one. I started giving them calcium citrate tablets about 3 weeks ago. I was worried about harming their kidneys so I started tapering off the calcium, despite neither one of them producing consistently hard shells yet.
I saw your comment stating you gave your girl calcium citrate every day for 2 months..is this OK to do then given the circumstances? I don't know if what my girls are experiencing is consistent with double ovulation but I do know its not normal or sustainable for them to be producing an egg every 12 hours at times.

 

[azygous]

No, ovulating twice in a 25 hour cycle is not normal nor healthy. Let me clarify the length of time I usually give one hen the calcium citrate supplement. It's normally for a few days to two weeks max. My hen Ethel was heading for an egg binding crisis. That's why I kept pumping the calcium into her. I figured any strain on her kidneys was preferable to death by egg binding.

Your hens being so young and both having this issue points to something outside their individual reproductive systems. Diet is the first thing to examine. If you are feeding a commercial feed, they are likely getting all the proper nutrients to produce normal eggs. But if you feed a lot of table scraps and treats, that would dilute the nutrients they are consuming.

The quality of the oyster shell you are providing can also be a cause. Oyster shell is calcium carbonate, a source of high calcium. However, this form of calcium takes a long time in the intestines for the calcium to be absorbed. In order to be properly absorbed, the calcium particles need to be of a size so that they don't pass out of the intestines too quickly. Making sure the oyster shell hasn't been reduced to a useless powder is necessary to assure proper absorption.

Some table scraps such as spinach prevent proper absorption of calcium, so you want to totally avoid these.

Another thing affecting shell quality is a virus. Have they at some point had a respiratory infection?

Another cause of low calcium, and calcium does affect the ovulation cycle, is lack of vitamin D due to living mostly without access to sunbathing. If your chickens are not getting direct sunlight, this could affect laying.

 

[Jlwennerberg9]

No, ovulating twice in a 25 hour cycle is not normal nor healthy. Let me clarify the length of time I usually give one hen the calcium citrate supplement. It's normally for a few days to two weeks max. My hen Ethel was heading for an egg binding crisis. That's why I kept pumping the calcium into her. I figured any strain on her kidneys was preferable to death by egg binding.

Your hens being so young and both having this issue points to something outside their individual reproductive systems. Diet is the first thing to examine. If you are feeding a commercial feed, they are likely getting all the proper nutrients to produce normal eggs. But if you feed a lot of table scraps and treats, that would dilute the nutrients they are consuming.

The quality of the oyster shell you are providing can also be a cause. Oyster shell is calcium carbonate, a source of high calcium. However, this form of calcium takes a long time in the intestines for the calcium to be absorbed. In order to be properly absorbed, the calcium particles need to be of a size so that they don't pass out of the intestines too quickly. Making sure the oyster shell hasn't been reduced to a useless powder is necessary to assure proper absorption.

Some table scraps such as spinach prevent proper absorption of calcium, so you want to totally avoid these.

Another thing affecting shell quality is a virus. Have they at some point had a respiratory infection?

Another cause of low calcium, and calcium does affect the ovulation cycle, is lack of vitamin D due to living mostly without access to sunbathing. If your chickens are not getting direct sunlight, this could affect laying.

So they do have access to oyster shell 24/7 that I top off every couple of days to make sure it isn't just small pieces or powder. One of my hens in questions rarely ever consumes the oyster, while I see the other hen eating some fairly often. They don't get a lot of kitchen scraps besides the occasional veggies or fruit, but I did start allowing them to free range in the yard starting this spring. Previously, they were kept exclusively in an enclosed run.

One of the EEs with the soft eggs has a voracious appetite and eats plenty of their layer feed whether free ranging or not. The other girl is the pickiest eater and seems to only want to eat her food right before roosting. Otherwise, she forages in the yard all day, and I see her eating tons of grass and clover. We have had a very hot summer so far and this girl in particular seems less interested in food due to the heat. I am wondering if confining them to the run for longer periods of the day would encourage her to eat more of her layer feed? Also because of the heat, they mostly avoid the open parts of the yard where its sunniest. They usually spend the day under the shade of some thick bushes but if lack of sun was the issue I'd think all 8 of my girls would be experiencing eggshell problems?

As far as a virus, I've thought long and hard about this. I have not noticed any respiratory issues in any of my girls. There's been no swollen eyes, drainage from noses or labored breathing. One of EEs does seem to pant much more than my other girls when she's hot, and often makes almost a honking noise when doing so. But she also did that last summer so I think that may just be a quirk about her? I have read about egg drop syndrome which I thought maybe was a possible virus they contracted from the wild birds in the yard but from what I've read that should run its course in about 10 weeks and these egg issues have been going on longer than that. Infectious bronchitis is another that always comes up in my searches but again, I haven't noticed my girls with any of the common symptoms of this.

 

[azygous]

You don't mention where you live. If, for example, you live in Panama or Brazil, it would be hot for much of the year. Heat stress can cause these shell issues. Other forms of stress can also. If you live on a busy street or have a noxious dog barking next door, this can affect egg quality.

I'm just listing possible causes, and I'm pretty much now out of ideas.

 

[Jlwennerberg9]

You don't mention where you live. If, for example, you live in Panama or Brazil, it would be hot for much of the year. Heat stress can cause these shell issues. Other forms of stress can also. If you live on a busy street or have a noxious dog barking next door, this can affect egg quality.

I'm just listing possible causes, and I'm pretty much now out of ideas.

Oops, sorry. We are in the US, south suburbs of Chicago. It has been very hot and humid (sometimes 85-90% humidity) so I wouldn't doubt that they are heat stressed. But I do all the things I know to do to help with that; electrolytes and blocks of ice in their water, sprinklers, frozen veggies, fans, plenty of shade, they even have a window AC unit in the coop for the hottest nights.

I am beginning to believe this could be related to a virus or parasite, just not familiar with all the common ones affecting poultry and if there are even pathogens that strictly affect the reproductive system in hens. Otherwise, I did recently (6 days ago) treat them with ivermectin and treat the coop/run with elector psp as I believe we had a mite issue. Not sure if mites could be the culprit of the egg issues and now that they've been treated their systems may regulate?

I appreciate your input very much. I am running out of ideas myself and am at a loss as to what could be causing this.

 

[azygous]

I think you and I have both covered all the bases we can think of. One other thing that affects shell quality is molt. It may seem that it's early yet for chickens to begin molting, but the days are growing shorter and it's triggered two of my hens so far to molt.

I think holding the line and observing behavior is what I would do now.

 

[Jlwennerberg9]

I think you and I have both covered all the bases we can think of. One other thing that affects shell quality is molt. It may seem that it's early yet for chickens to begin molting, but the days are growing shorter and it's triggered two of my hens so far to molt.

I think holding the line and observing behavior is what I would do now.

Thanks for your help! If you don't mind answering one more question for me, is there any benefit (or harm) in giving them calcium carbonate tablets orally? I know the calcium citrate is more quickly available for their bodies to utilize, but would administering calcium carbonate help them build up their long term supply of calcium and potentially be less harmful to the kidneys?

 

[rosemarythyme]

So they do have access to oyster shell 24/7 that I top off every couple of days to make sure it isn't just small pieces or powder. One of my hens in questions rarely ever consumes the oyster, while I see the other hen eating some fairly often.

Have you tried crushed eggshell instead? It doesn't provide as much calcium compared to oyster shell, but for birds that don't like oyster shell they may be more willing to eat eggshell instead. I offer both mixed in the same dispenser, to encourage layers to visit it as needed.

 

[Mother of Chaos]

Have you tried crushed eggshell instead? It doesn't provide as much calcium compared to oyster shell, but for birds that don't like oyster shell they may be more willing to eat eggshell instead. I offer both mixed in the same dispenser, to encourage layers to visit it as needed.

I do this as well. I also toss it out on one of their pathways (brown mulch), where it's very visible, along with some of their feed as a treat. One thing that I've seen with my chickens is that once they start pecking away and eating something, they tend to keep going and eat something entirely unrelated.

Or not. They ARE chickens, after all!

 

[azygous]

Calcium supplements, whether citrate or carbonate forms, are concentrated, unlike oyster shell and egg shells. Hens are reacting to individual cravings for calcium and they consume the oyster shell or egg shells and quit when they feel satisfied. They can't do that when we stuff a supplement into them. That's why we need to be careful with supplements that are concentrated.

You could give them vitamin D3 capsules for a couple weeks to boost absorption and see if that improves the shell quality.