Splash Leghorns

[tadkerson]

I have never seen an Andalusian that actually had lacing. The ones I have worked with all had what I call edging. I worked with blue for a few years but had to stop. My facilities are limited.

My Andalusians varied in depth of color and so did the other birds I had bred. I have some ideas on blue and why the color varies but not enough data to back my ideas.

Tim

 

[krazycow6]

So needless to say the easiest way to go is with the andalusian. Thats what I was thinking but, I didnt know if it was possible. Thanks for all your input.

 

[Krys109uk]

I thought Andalusians had to have that beautiful tidy black lacing on blue.
If they've only got blue edging haven't they lost an important breed characteristic.....or are the standards different in US?

Someone said all blues in US were laced. I was presuming they meant the Pg-Ml, Co type lacing as quoted as being present in Andalusians.
Did they mean that all blues in US had the edging.....which is pretty usual in blues? How confusing.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the various expressions of blue.

 

[tadkerson]

I do not think you will get true black lacing on an extended black bird. You can get edging but not a true lace. The columbian gene is not effective on extended black so how are you going to get a lace on a bird that columbian does not work on. It is the melanotic that causes the lace and is not effected by the blue gene. It takes a restrictor to focus or concentrate the melanotic pigmentation onto the edge of the feather creating a lace.

I believe that you can get good lacing on a blue bird that is homozygous for :melanotic, birchen, dark brown, and pattern genes.

or on a blue bird that is brown, columbian, melanotic and pattern.

Campo did a study with Blue Andalusian and determined they do not have columbian. The birds were Ml-Pg/Ml-Pg and extended black (E/E).

Carefoot did a study and he concluded Blue Andalusians do have columbian. My work agreed with Campo.


Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

I've seen Andalusians with tidy black lacing. But I've only seen Andalusians at shows; I hadn't realised they weren't all like that.

Having read Dr Carefoot's work I suppose I presumed that it was that they were homozygous E, Pg-Ml & Co as he suggested.

I hadn't realised that any of the restrictor genes were supposed to affect adult plumage of E/E birds.
Clearly Dr Carefoot thought columbian was part of the lace & said they were E (I'm not sure ER had been found at the time).
I usually think about things which don't seem to make sense until I can think of how it might possibly work. I'd guessed that, perhaps, the blue diluted the black but the presence of the restricting genes caused more eumelanin to be concentrated at the edges causing a laced effect. Well one has to think of something to try to make things make sense.

Now what confuses me is when the blue bird, with proper black lacing, is on ER or eb. How is it that the restrictors do not restrict the eumelanin to the edges of the feather?
For instance the Barnevelder is on eb with homozygous Pg-Ml & is also heavily melanised but it still has colour, albeit dark colour, between the black lacing & when the black is turned blue the colour remains colour? So how do they get the ground colour to remain blue on black laced eb birds? Is it because they're heavily melanised? And if so presumably they have more melanising genes than the barnevelders? Much the same of ER . Usually ER birds with Pg-Ml, Co &/or Db would be laced with a pheomelanin ground. So how exactly do they keep the ground colour blue?

Also.....when people say that all blue birds in US are 'laced' do they mean properly laced with the secondary pattern genes or do they just mean with the edging?

 

[tadkerson]

I have produced barnevelder that were almost black. I had to stop my work so I do not want to even guess at why they were so black. Once I had produced a self black barnevelder. I would introduce the columbian gene to see what would happen.

I do not think the black ground color that covered the red ground color would be effected by the columbian gene. The columbian gene works on removing black associated with the male plumage and stippling in the female plumage and removing melanotic black from the middle of the feather ( double lacing). I think the pattern gene and columbian work together to place all the melanotic black on the edge of the feather so you get a single lace.


Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

I don't think I'm managing to ask the question in a coherent manner. Or I'm just not understanding the answer.
What I do not understand is how proper black lacing can be on a blue ground colour, as it is on exhibition andalusians, especially if it is on ER or eb. As blue pigment is a dilution of black why is the blue not restricted from the main part of the feather & concentrated around the edge of the feather along with the black? Is this due to melanising genes? If Ml is enhancing the black why is it not affected by Bl?

Also if the lacing is due only to Pg-Ml why would it only be single black lacing rather than the double lacing usual to Pg-Ml?

 

[tadkerson]

Quote:
single lacing= homozygous Co and homozygous Ml-Pg,

double lace = homozygous Ml-Pg only

The blue gene does not effect the black pigment produced by melanotic therefore you can get a black lace on a blue feather. The blue gene can only dilute black produced by other genes.

Think of it like this. When the melanotic gene turns on, the blue gene turns off.

It is the pattern gene that causes the black pigment (produced by the melanotic gene) to be gathered as a lace on the feather. In double lacing, two melanotic black patterns (laces) are formed producing a double lace. If you add columbian, the inner lace produced by melanotic is delayed or even stopped during feather formation and is added to the edge of the feather.

Without the pattern gene, the stippling in brown birds would be scattered all over the place. It is the pattern gene that gathers all the stippling together to make a pencil pattern.

Tim

 

[Krys109uk]

The blue gene does not effect the black pigment produced by melanotic therefore you can get a black lace on a blue feather. The blue gene can only dilute black produced by other genes.

Think of it like this. When the melanotic gene turns on, the blue gene turns off.

Thanks Tim, that's interesting & helpful asit explains how a black lace can be on blue, but it leaves me with other questions.

Campo did a study with Blue Andalusian and determined they do not have columbian. The birds were Ml-Pg/Ml-Pg and extended black (E/E).

Carefoot did a study and he concluded Blue Andalusians do have columbian. My work agreed with Campo.

Such as how does the blue andalusian have single black lace on blue with only Pg-Ml?

Another question which confuses me is; Is Ml only unaffected by Bl in certain cases? Otherwise how would it be possible to have double blue laced Barnevelders, single blue laced wyandottes, blue laced gold Polands etc?

Sorry for all the questions. I like to get things straight in my mind.​

 

[tadkerson]

I do not think the birds Campo worked with had a true lace. I think it was the melanotic producing an edge on the feather.

Another question which confuses me is; Is Ml only unaffected by Bl in certain cases? Otherwise how would it be possible to have double blue laced Barnevelders, single blue laced wyandottes, blue laced gold Polands etc?

That is a good one. Barnevelders and wyandottes are eb while polish I believe are E^R ?? or maybe eb, I am not for sure. I found some research on polish but have not had time to digest the work . In this case I believe the E locus is acting as a modifier allowing the blue to modify the black due to melanotic. On the Extended black you do not get the modification and you get a black lace on a blue bird.

This brings us full circle to my original idea. Getting a black lace on a blue bird that is eb. If the eb modifies the melanotic, I will get a blue lace on a blue bird- not good. But I do not know how the modifiers that are adding the additional black pigment will effect the melanotic????. That is why I said I need more research data to support my ideas.

Tim​