Standard Cornish vs. Cornish-X

[Buster52]

Quote:
To tell the truth, neither do I. Guess it's like football. Question the qualities of someone's favorite team and they can get kinda excited about it.

Ummm...actually I was referring mostly to you?

I assumed you were. I just think it fits the other foot better.

My reasons for disliking the CX and liking heritage birds are entirely rational.

 

[SteveH]

So to summarize
1. Cornish X : I can eat a few at 2 1/2 weeks as game hens and process the rest at 6 to 7 weeks ?
or
2. Standard Cornish : I can process all at 6 to 7 months ?

I'm going to have to think on it .

[ I was jokin' guys ]

 

[Buster52]

Quote:
Provided they live that long.

Seriously, I think you pretty much summed up most of the advantages of raising the X Bird. They grow fast and you can butcher early. Only other advantage I can think of that you may have missed is FCR.

 

[SteveH]

Feed to Crap Ratio
Yeah , those Cornish Xs are going to eat and crap twice as much in the first 7 weeks , forgot about that .

 

[Buster52]

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I'm not convinced that anything I have said about the CX in this thread is inaccurate. I don't consider them to be either sustainable or healthy, as I define that term from my point of view. This thread merely confirms those things in my mind.

True, I have not raised Cornish Cross. But I do read and pay close attention to what I read. And even folks who love them let slip from time to time their faults. The literature out there claims that they grow too fast for their organs and bone structure to keep up. When I read here of leg problems and heart failure at an age that would be the equivolant of a 12 year old human child, that merely confirms what I have read in the literature. I define that as unhealthy and even unnatural. I don't need to raise them to come to that opinion.

I wish I could find the paper, but a scientist in Europe recently dissected and studied the bone structure and internal organs of young, many of them "healthy", Cornish Cross. Not a single one was without at least some physical problem that had to do with its rapid growth. Signs of heart problems, bone weakness, joint problems, something, all in very young birds. Story after story after story that I read here by practicing backyard producers merely confirms that.

The two people in this thread who have raised them to full adulthood mentioned problems with fully adult birds, things like leg problems and CHF, when nothing in their husbandry would lead one to suspect that should be expected (and wouldn't be in the case in a heritage breed), merely confirms my point of view on the issue. In my view if a bird can't be raised into a healthy adulthood, it is an unhealthy bird.

On sustainability... some of the rest of you may not define the practice of shipping in birds every season from a factory farm system unsustainable, but I certainly do. And sustainability next to the humane treatment of animals (see the above) is my big deal. I have read and studied and thought and practiced on it a lot. The more local your inputs, be they animals and their feed or feed for you, the more sustainable your system. The farther it has to be shipped, the less sustainable it is. Some things can't be helped (I don't know anybody in my local community that manufactures paper and ink or prints books, so those I have to import), but some things can be. I can grow my own food and if I can't grow something, I try to buy it as locally as possible. That at least supports my local economy and reduces the circle, which is more sustainable than buying food that has been shipped 2,000 miles from a company that exports its profits to a corporation thousands of miles away.

I know, that sounds off topic, but it isn't. It is merely an explanation of why I consider the Cornish X a bad bird to raise, even for me, a backyard producer. Sometimes I don't have a choice on sustainability, but sometimes I do. And when I can choose to hatch and raise my own meat birds in my own back yard, and to feed them either stuff I have on my own property or that can be obtained from a local source with local grains, I do in fact have a choice. For me, it is a no-brainer. I go with the more sustainable choice.

Which leads me back to the title of this thread, "Standard Cornish vs. Cornish-X". Some have expressed a disapproval of comparing one bird against another, but with a subject heading like that, it is inevitable. There are reasons to raise one over the other. If you want a bird that grows fast and has good FCR that you can butcher young and be done with the whole thing until you are ready to raise more, go with the CX. If you want a bird that is healthy, sustainable, delicious, and don't mind having birds around to care for and feed year round, go with the standard Cornish.

 

[paduanchook]

Give the man applause.

Song: you go your way, I go mine, we meet in the middle......the roads not to long, when we meet in the middle
who sings that country song?

 

[Brunty_Farms]

If you want a bird that grows fast and has good FCR that you can butcher young and be done with the whole thing until you are ready to raise more, go with the CX. If you want a bird that is healthy, sustainable, delicious, and don't mind having birds around to care for and feed year round, go with the standard Cornish.

I think we can all rest our hats on that.


I see your points and agree with them. I'm glad you can understand that they are a great fit for some people. I think a lot of producers like myself find the economics of the birds the biggest deciding factor. Sure, we all want a perfectly healthy bird that grows to a good weight in the time desired. I think taking one step at a time towards going local and sustainable needs to be done slowly. The whole reason why I do what I do is to have a healthy alternative. I only want the best for my birds and more importantly the people they feed. If I honestly thought that I was being cruel to the cornish x rocks by raising them I wouldn't be doing it. I believe that by raising them out an extra week or two instead of that 42 day mark is better for the bird. It gives them the chance to grow more bone structure to hold their frame.

I do give the fact that they are definitely not normal chickens, under normal conditions in nature they would be too slow to get away from predators. So naturally only the smallest and fastest survived. I think that every breed pretty much that was developed isn't normal under those conditions... if man didn't selectively breed for certain Dual Purpose traits we all would be eating on pigeon legs. I guess my point is a typical DP is not any more natural than a cornish x as far as survival of the fittest. Only a handful of breeds would be able to survive without our intervention.... and I don't know very many that would last a northeast Ohio winter. The point is they are all hand selected for humans best interest, not the birds.

Which brings me back to the point that you have to economically walk into organics/sustainable and not run. There is a fine line of being economical and ethical... and it's hard to juggle the two when trying to make a living. Trust me, I would much rather put 1200 birds (heritage) in an acre paddock and let them do their thing and then move them once a week. But in the end it comes down to a few factors. The birds that live that way, don't amount to much as a meat bird. Sure it sounds ethical but totally not economical. They may fit the bill for a family wanting to raise meat for themselves.... but not mine. If I want to make a difference in the nations food supply... I can't do it with scrawny roosters.

My Opinion for raising them.... they are perfect for what I do, I can do multiple batches over the course of a season and feed a lot of families. They are sustainable to an extent, which I'm proving that they are by raising a flock of them. I'm raising this flock for you Buster... just to prove a point. LOL... You never know, I may come up with something through my stubbornness that I end up liking. I'm not sure what else I have to do to show you, they aren't what you think they are... despite what you read. I would wanna bet that those studies were done on commercially raised broilers.... which is not much of any proof. ANY chicken grown in those conditions are going to be unhealthy..... I think we both can agree on that. Also too they are fed appetite stimulants to make them eat more, so of course they are going to show signs of stressed growth.... very biased if you basing your opinions on research like that. So yes it is important that you raise them yourself... they are totally different.

I'm not trying to convince you to raise them on routinely basis... I'm not even trying to convince you to raise them once. They don't fit everyones bill.... they do take more time to raise, and they do take a bit of chicken knowledge. They are not like a DP breed where you can just let them roam and do their thing. If you want them to live past a certain age and if you want them to be healthy... than yes there is a bit of special care that needs to be done. Why do you think I put them out on grass? Why do you think I do it at 7-10 days? These birds can't sit in the brooder and just eat, I agree that if they are left to do this, they become the monsters so many think they are....

In three weeks they are the size of a 6 week old DP... almost fully feathered and ready to go outside. Just keep that in mind when your wanting to raise some, they mature so much faster. It would be like keeping a hen locked up in a brooder and giving it 22% feed.... that would be one fat hen. These guys have to get out and run, move those legs, work those little hearts and condition them to be healthy. IF you want the benefits of a fast growing bird you need to work with the pitfalls as well. I treat mine like they are in the marines.... they have to stand up and reach for water.... reach for feed... walk a good distance between food and water... move them 3 sometimes 4 times a day so they have good pasture a clean bed at night and so on. A lot goes into raising these and keeping them healthy. But I take it to the extreme, it's important to me to make sure that they are raised that way. I would not feed fat, lazy, unhealthy birds to my family nor my customers.

I don't know... I feel like I'm beating my head against a wall trying to explain to you why they aren't what you think they are. That should go to show you how much passion I truly have for these birds and what I do. Because in all seriousness I really shouldn't care what a guy in Oklahoma thinks about cornish x meat birds... LOL.

But the truth is I do. I guess if we can both walk away and respect the fact that we are both on the same side fighting for the same overall goals than I guess I can deal with that.

Buster- I had a guy call me the other day asking about my operations and kinda seeing how I did things.... funny thing was he was from Oklahoma... would that happen to be you or just coincidence?​

 

[Brunty_Farms]

I wish I could find the paper, but a scientist in Europe recently dissected and studied the bone structure and internal organs of young, many of them "healthy", Cornish Cross. Not a single one was without at least some physical problem that had to do with its rapid growth. Signs of heart problems, bone weakness, joint problems, something, all in very young birds. Story after story after story that I read here by practicing backyard producers merely confirms that.

This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about... this is such biased BS.... but that's my opinion I guess.

These are probably studies from commercially raised birds that are fed appetite stimulants..... which make them eat more. One of those stimulants is "arsenic"..... That's not even a fair comparison???​

 

[CARS]

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I butcher at 8 weeks. But if you are worried about all the talk about them just up and dieing, it can happen anytime although when I raise in small numbers (25) I have had great luck with all of them living till the axe came out.

I tried to let mine out of the shed because we've been in the high 60s, and they just laid against the wall and didn't do anything. I live in the middle of the most arid desert in the US, so it's not like there is anything for them to forage, but they really don't seem interested in walking around much. Coming from someone that knows absolutely nothing about chickens, I would definitely describe them as lazy. Are they hard? I haven't killed them yet, so they aren't that hard. Unless you guys tell me they will start keeling over any day now. They seem very healthy. And believe you me, I haven't the slightest clue what I am doing. If I can raise them, I'm sure anyone could.

This is where the "extra work" comes in. I encourage them to roam around by moving the food and water. Yes, that may take a few seconds of "extra work" but it gets them moving. It also helps spread the mess around. If you feed them in the same space too long you'll have a very concentrated pile of poo

Your summer heat will take a toll on them so I am glad you bought them early. Enjoy raising them and more importantly, the meat

 

[TimG]

It is my opinion that Cornish Crosses would be sustainable for a small farmer if the small farmer had access to the breeder stock. For sustainability, it doesn't seem to me that the end product would have to be sustainable on its own, but rather the process sustained. I don't know how healthy the parent/grandparent lines are, but I'm guessing much more healthy than the end result.

I applaud the efforts of those who wish to produce a sustainable (or more easily sustainable, or more economically sustainable) product. I am taking efforts in this direction myself. But, I do not see the Cornish Cross as the evil it seems some others see it as.

I find it a bit ironic that anyone using a computer to post to a forum is too worked up about this, computers aren't exactly the greenest of machines and I doubt many computers that forum posters own were manufactured locally of locally made components.