"Start where you are with what you have" By R H Sturgeon

[minister man]

Hi again,

I light of this " line breeding" research I have been doing, I found this really well explained article on the internet at this link: http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id60.html

This site has a whole list of articles and in one of their other articles he spaeks of setting up this type of program with One Champion male, and 3 hens one to head each family. Seems really straight forward and detailed. The housing they discribe is for large rocks So I probably can alter that a bit for bantams.

In thier articles they speak of the same types of things that you have taught me here, that it is not about have large pens of birds, but about retaining the best birds. So each family is only the very best trio or quad.

The only thing I see with this plan is that it only uses the birds for one generation. If I raised a true Champion would I not want to use him more than that?

Does anyone else use this type of program? simple......... I am working on learning what the "perfect bird" looks Like, and am trying to put together some selection data, so I can choose which birds to pick for the breeding pens.

Thanks Everyone

 

[Lotsapaints]

You can use spiral breeding http://www.pathfindersfarm.com/Spiral.html and Bob is on this site you can pm him for more help he is very nice

 

[minister man]

thanks for the spiral breeding link. It seems a little more confusing than the other one I posted, but When I get a chance to draw it our in diagram forum then it might become more clear. I am a pretty visual person, I have to see things to understand them.

One thing I did notice is that the pullets "join thier mothers", by that I am guess they mean that the daughters are compared to thier mothers and culled down to the best, or does the female side of things just keep on growing add new birds each year to all the other birds?

Thanks again

 

[mychookschick]

Mister man,

Thank you sooo much for asking your questions!! I have learned so much from them and now I don't have to ask the same things over!! YAY!! I enjoyed reading this, so, thank you to all of you who answered as well!!

 

[minister man]

Well, your welcome for asking the questions. I am starting to understand that there are a whole lot more ways than one to do this and what to do next year, depends on what happened last year. I guess you truely can't breed birds that you don't have, so I have to wait and see what I raise, before I can see how to breed them.

I wrote to the author of the spiral mating link to ask a couple of things I didn't understand. Heard back from her mentor, in a clear manor, and I am so Pleased to have received that info. Probably going to do that plan with my white leghorns. And later my silkies.

Wrote to Bob, who was so helpful to help me see a couple of ways to get the show silkies from a pair to 3 pens. His rotational breeding plan is much the same as the spiral only the matings are smaller and there are no years where you father daugther mate.

Frankly I think I will use a bit of both plans. Probably 3 pens with 3-4 females and a male, and roate them. When One years male produce amazing offspring then I might use that male a second year.


I think that is what I have decided after 2 years of reasearch.

Thanks for all the help every one, now I have to learn who to select.........................

 

[3riverschick]

Hi MinisterMan.
Perhaps some help from this vintage book. Judge W.H. Card
was a veteran breeder and noted poultry judge who lectured to the APA.
I am also a visual-spatial learner and found the chart in this book very helpful.
Just a great little 59 page volume in the Internet Archive.
Best Regards,
Karen Tewart
Waterford Light Sussex, western PA, USA.

Has 7 different ways to read it online, including
Kindle. I found pages 48-51 esp. helpful with my Golden Salmon project.
Full of pithy wisdom, the title is:
" Laws governing the breeding of standard fowls ; a book covering outbreeding ,
inbreeding and line breeding of all recognized breeds of domestic fowls , with
chart " , 1912 (1912)
Author: Card, Wetherell Henry, 1860-
Subject: Poultry
Publisher: [Manchester, Conn., The Herald printing company
Language: English
Call number: SF487 .C3
Digitizing sponsor: MSN
Book contributor: Cornell University Library
here is the URL to read it online:
http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924003158312
www.archive.org/details/cu31924003158312
If you have any trouble accessing the "Read Online" format(1 of 7 available
for reading this book online) for reading online here is the URL to the old
version of that format:

http://www.archive.org/texts/flipbook/flippy.php?id=cu31924003158312
www.archive.org/texts/flipbook/flippy.php?id=cu31924003158312

 

[CityChicker]

The way you breed depends on so many different factors. I agree that you have to use common sense. Some of the questions about caging do depend on how many varieties you are keeping and how many individual birds (as well as how many you chose to grow out).

I will tell you that we outcross here a little sooner than most (by 3rd or 4th generation rather than 7th or 8th). I also though have many years of experience and breed similarly to how I have been taught over the years by my parents and grandparents. I typically will take the best male (and actually most of our serious breeding is in our ducks, not chickens) we have and mate him to 1-2 females. I will keep usually the top 10% or so of the female offspring and only probably .5%-1% of the top drakes, if any at all (often we don't keep F1 males). The second generation, I will mate the best daughters (the top 10% or so I mentioned) back to their father. It is from this generation that I usually will keep a new drake or two out of the dozens that we grow out if I didn't keep any exceptional drakes prior and mate him back to a sibling and then start the process over, mating their best female offspring back to their father (the newer male).

This is the fast way to really improve or establish a line and really get the best traits to come through consistently. Unfortunately, it also establishes the negative traits of that particular line as well. For this reason, in most of our breeds, we have at least 2-3 family groups going. As I said, often in the F3 or F4 birds, we will then outcross to one of our other family groups that has the traits that compensate for the other line's flaws (instead of mating siblings in that generation, it just depends on how many birds we hatch and how they look). Other experienced breeders do this less frequently, but this is what works for me and I never breed haphazardly without a plan or a goal.

The other real key is hatching enough that you have good stock to pull from. This is a necessity if you want to get anywhere. When we first start with something new, we try to hatch as many as possible (frequently a couple hundred birds). In recent years, much of my breeding has been focused on the genetics of color and on less established varieties (mostly in our ducks, but also in our chickens to some extent). Because of this and the number of multiple recessive genes involved, we sometimes also mate siblings and hatch even more than normal since we are frequently working with 2 or more recessive genes in the same color/pattern which can result in as few as 1 in 16 of the F2 birds having the correct color. It is a very long and tedious process that requires knowledge and eye for what you are doing.

Everyone has to decide what is right for them and what their goals are. If your goal is to breed show winners, generally the fewer varieties the better. Otherwise, most people do not have the space or money to grow up hundreds of birds in several varieties. My focus these days (I haven't shown in 20 years) is more on diversity and keeping rare varieties than on showing. If I were more into showing, I definitely would not do more than 1-2 varieties.

 

[TACEYPERKINS]

Sorry all, I just had to revive this thread. It has such great information and with breeding season coming up I know alot of people could use it. Thank you for starting it.

 

[BarnGoddess01]

Reviving this thread once again. The most recent issue of "Feather Fancier" in Canada has an excerpt from Ralph H. Sturgeon's "Start Where You Are With What You Have: A Guide to Poultry Breeding" which has totally captured my attention. Best explaination of line-breeding/inbreeding I've ever read. I actually understood it. Miracles!!! The pieces are starting to fall into place for me now. Thankfully, this thread lead me to a site where I could order a copy of the whole book. I am just getting started as a "breeder" so I'm very much trying to take it all in and trying to minimize the number of times I have to start over.

So much to consider, so much to learn ....

 

[3riverschick]

Thankfully, this thread lead me to a site where I could order a copy of the whole book. I am just getting started as a "breeder" so I'm very much trying to take it all in and trying to minimize the number of times I have to start over.

So much to consider, so much to learn ....

Hi,
where did you buy your book? Thanks,
Karen
Ah! Found it! Thanks!
http://www.bellsouth.com.au/books/poultrynz.html