Starting over after Mareks -

[coach723]

There is a lot of info on Marek's out there, some is better than others, honestly. I'm sorry you are dealing with it, it's far more common than most people realize. It's also really variable flock to flock and bird to bird. There are several strains, some are much more virulent than others. Some do not present at all like the literature commonly describes. I have Marek's in my flock. The choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate is sometimes controversial (I make my personal choice, I don't advocate either way) and we all have to research and make the choice which we are comfortable with. I can say, that in my flock, and I've read of many others, that once you get past the initial phase, things do tend to calm down. I still lose birds, but not in the numbers that it was at first. I hatch from those that are asymptomatic (birds hatched here are not vaccinated) , and hope to pass resistance from parent to chick. Doing whatever you can to have a healthy, strong flock with good immune systems is also important. I have some pretty old birds that have never shown a bit of symptoms (unvaccinated). I think the biggest take away, is get confirmation if you don't know or have never had it in your flock, and then always consider the variability of symptoms, it may or may not LOOK like Marek's' and it may or may not BE Marek's. It's an awful disease.
If you haven't seen this article yet, it's a good one:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...-i-learned-to-deal-with-mareks-disease.76944/

 

[omi4500]

There is a lot of info on Marek's out there, some is better than others, honestly. I'm sorry you are dealing with it, it's far more common than most people realize. It's also really variable flock to flock and bird to bird. There are several strains, some are much more virulent than others. Some do not present at all like the literature commonly describes. I have Marek's in my flock. The choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate is sometimes controversial (I make my personal choice, I don't advocate either way) and we all have to research and make the choice which we are comfortable with. I can say, that in my flock, and I've read of many others, that once you get past the initial phase, things do tend to calm down. I still lose birds, but not in the numbers that it was at first. I hatch from those that are asymptomatic (birds hatched here are not vaccinated) , and hope to pass resistance from parent to chick. Doing whatever you can to have a healthy, strong flock with good immune systems is also important. I have some pretty old birds that have never shown a bit of symptoms (unvaccinated). I think the biggest take away, is get confirmation if you don't know or have never had it in your flock, and then always consider the variability of symptoms, it may or may not LOOK like Marek's' and it may or may not BE Marek's. It's an awful disease.
If you haven't seen this article yet, it's a good one:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/ar...-i-learned-to-deal-with-mareks-disease.76944/

Thank you for taking the time to share your input and experiences, as well as advice. I had heard of Mareks now and then, but had no clue that it was so widespread and so common. Until now. I hope we have reached the "calm down" phase as I move forward in re-establishing my flock. I also ready the article link you shared. That was super informative. Thank you!!

 

[2ndTink]

I meant to respond yesterday and got distracted since I was outside in the middle of more coop cleaning. I know I'll never eradicate all of the virus out there, but I will say that my coop itself is now probably the cleanest it's been since we first had it built 10 years ago! I used the virkon s yesterday on every surface I could physically get to. I sprayed the remaining bedding and ground inside the coop for good measure, swept out as much of the pdz from the hen house as possible and sprayed all in there top to bottom, and also sprayed everything I could inside their day run enclosure. I had a number of large tree stumps in my coop and run for sitting perches. I removed the ones I could and told husb to take them to our firewood pile, and I sprayed the ones that were left. And last night, I hand washed all the feeders and waterers with hot soapy water, then sprayed them with virkon, then rinsed them well with water after about an hour. I may not have fingernails now but everything is pretty clean and disinfected.

I am so nervous but I think I am going to move the chicks to the coop today or tomorrow. I did find and join a Mareks FB group. The recommendation there is to keep vax'd chicks sep from M+ flock for 6 weeks, which I have done. Based on their age at purchase, this makes my chicks 6-7 weeks post vax.

Thank you for the info on RAL - that is a great resource to take advantage of!

Final question - in terms of probiotics, are you talking about something like offering yogurt or fermented foods, or more along the lines of a commercial supplement?

Whatever of those work the best for you.

@coach723 had a super good post. Reading about Mareks online can get confusing. I've found studies saying vaccinated chickens shed less virus, and studies saying they shed more. It feels like I can't get the facts, and it's likely because each strain is different and each breed and each chicken handles things differently.

 

[coach723]

Here's the thing about the Marek's vaccine. It reduces the risk of them developing the tumors, and thus reduces mortality, from the virus. It does not stop them from contracting, or spreading the virus. That is what is called a leaky vaccine. So a vaccinated bird can get Marek's disease (not from the vaccine, but from being exposed to the virus), but has a much higher chance of living a longer, more normal life. They can also pass it to other birds, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, if they are infected. This is why a Marek's positive flock is always considered Marek's positive, even if you've had no losses for a while. If a bird is vaccinated and asymptomatic, you have no way to know or suspect if they are carrying it and may be shedding it. Some theories are that by keeping Marek's positive birds alive via the vaccine, that might have died otherwise, it allows the virus to mutate and become perhaps worse. Most virus's tend to mutate to the less virulent forms rather than worse, by natural selection. If the host dies too quickly then the virus dies also, and virus's want to survive also. But by allowing the virus to live and do it's thing in a host that is protected from dying from it in the normal progression, it might skew the evolutionary norms. Another study concluded that that was not the case, and that the vaccine did the opposite. I'm not sure at this point that there have been enough, large enough studies, to make an empirical, "this is correct, this is not", decisions.
So that is the controversy surrounding the Marek's vaccine, and why we each have to educate ourselves the best we can and make the best decision we can for our own flocks and our own circumstances. I'm open minded enough to change my own opinion at any time based on new information. The vaccine itself does not cause Marek's disease. A couple of articles that might be helpful:

https://amerpoultryassn.com/2022/07/mareks-disease-vaccination/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms-in-poultry/marek-s-disease-in-poultry

 

[omi4500]

Here's the thing about the Marek's vaccine. It reduces the risk of them developing the tumors, and thus reduces mortality, from the virus. It does not stop them from contracting, or spreading the virus. That is what is called a leaky vaccine. So a vaccinated bird can get Marek's disease (not from the vaccine, but from being exposed to the virus), but has a much higher chance of living a longer, more normal life. They can also pass it to other birds, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, if they are infected. This is why a Marek's positive flock is always considered Marek's positive, even if you've had no losses for a while. If a bird is vaccinated and asymptomatic, you have no way to know or suspect if they are carrying it and may be shedding it. Some theories are that by keeping Marek's positive birds alive via the vaccine, that might have died otherwise, it allows the virus to mutate and become perhaps worse. Most virus's tend to mutate to the less virulent forms rather than worse, by natural selection. If the host dies too quickly then the virus dies also, and virus's want to survive also. But by allowing the virus to live and do it's thing in a host that is protected from dying from it in the normal progression, it might skew the evolutionary norms. Another study concluded that that was not the case, and that the vaccine did the opposite. I'm not sure at this point that there have been enough, large enough studies, to make an empirical, "this is correct, this is not", decisions.
So that is the controversy surrounding the Marek's vaccine, and why we each have to educate ourselves the best we can and make the best decision we can for our own flocks and our own circumstances. I'm open minded enough to change my own opinion at any time based on new information. The vaccine itself does not cause Marek's disease. A couple of articles that might be helpful:

https://amerpoultryassn.com/2022/07/mareks-disease-vaccination/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms-in-poultry/marek-s-disease-in-poultry

I so appreciate you taking the time to share this information about the vaccines. I appreciate everyone chiming in, as it's been very helpful and educational for me. It's definitely one of those situations (for me) that.... you don't know what you don't know - until you do. And so now I am actively trying to learn more & more in order to make informed decisions moving forward. I am about to go pick up my husband at the airport, but I am going to read both links you shared yesterday.

Speaking of yesterday, I was busy doing even more cleaning before I moved my chicks to their sectioned off part of the coop in the afternoon. They seem happy out there, and they are already expressing the desire to get out and run around the rest of the coop. My adult hen was so curious! And then decided she would say hi by being bossy (still separated from chicks but they can be side by side, which is the way I have always slowly introduced newbies to my flock). Everyone got some yogurt today, and dried mealworms. I am glad to see my littles thriving and active right now, but I think I am going to change my profile name to "Wing and a Prayer" at this point.

 

[2ndTink]

Here's the thing about the Marek's vaccine. It reduces the risk of them developing the tumors, and thus reduces mortality, from the virus. It does not stop them from contracting, or spreading the virus. That is what is called a leaky vaccine. So a vaccinated bird can get Marek's disease (not from the vaccine, but from being exposed to the virus), but has a much higher chance of living a longer, more normal life. They can also pass it to other birds, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, if they are infected. This is why a Marek's positive flock is always considered Marek's positive, even if you've had no losses for a while. If a bird is vaccinated and asymptomatic, you have no way to know or suspect if they are carrying it and may be shedding it. Some theories are that by keeping Marek's positive birds alive via the vaccine, that might have died otherwise, it allows the virus to mutate and become perhaps worse. Most virus's tend to mutate to the less virulent forms rather than worse, by natural selection. If the host dies too quickly then the virus dies also, and virus's want to survive also. But by allowing the virus to live and do it's thing in a host that is protected from dying from it in the normal progression, it might skew the evolutionary norms. Another study concluded that that was not the case, and that the vaccine did the opposite. I'm not sure at this point that there have been enough, large enough studies, to make an empirical, "this is correct, this is not", decisions.
So that is the controversy surrounding the Marek's vaccine, and why we each have to educate ourselves the best we can and make the best decision we can for our own flocks and our own circumstances. I'm open minded enough to change my own opinion at any time based on new information. The vaccine itself does not cause Marek's disease. A couple of articles that might be helpful:

https://amerpoultryassn.com/2022/07/mareks-disease-vaccination/

https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/neoplasms-in-poultry/marek-s-disease-in-poultry

You say everything so much better than me!
I have chosen to vaccinate and I completely understand those who do, and those who don't. Since I have silkies, everyone I hatch here is getting vaccinated. I did PCR testing and my layers tested negative and the silkies tested positive

If I ever stop having silkies, I may stop vaccinating.

And I never hit send yesterday, so sorry for the delayed post

 

[coach723]

No problem. I don't have silkies as I know they are much more susceptible to the virus, so completely understand why you would vaccinate them. I got Egyptian Fayoumi's last year, they are supposed to be more resistant to it. So far, knock on wood, none of them have shown any symptoms at all, they are almost a year and a half old now.

 

[2ndTink]

No problem. I don't have silkies as I know they are much more susceptible to the virus, so completely understand why you would vaccinate them. I got Egyptian Fayoumi's last year, they are supposed to be more resistant to it. So far, knock on wood, none of them have shown any symptoms at all, they are almost a year and a half old now.

I've read that about the Fayoumis too, but also that they are flighty. How are yours?

I was going to have my layers and then only breed silkies. Since Mareks, I've decided to have small breeding pens of 2 other LF breeds just in case the silkies have too many issues even after vaccinating.

 

[coach723]

The fayoumi's are flighty. They are noisier too. I like them, but they are not for everyone. They need more space, and will work very hard to escape if they don't have it. They fly better, I've found mine in trees, and they used trees to escape my original ranging area. Took me a week to figure out how they were getting out! I was already in the process of building a larger coop and much larger outdoor area when I got mine, thank goodness! They also dig a LOT!! So in too small of a space it becomes torn up pretty quickly. They don't like to be handled, and that started very young. Some of them are better than others about it, but when I have to handle one they screech and holler like you are killing them. And they are fast! No way to catch one unless it's cooped, or you use a net.
Here's a couple of pictures of some of the escapees in progress:

 

[2ndTink]

The fayoumi's are flighty. They are noisier too. I like them, but they are not for everyone. They need more space, and will work very hard to escape if they don't have it. They fly better, I've found mine in trees, and they used trees to escape my original ranging area. Took me a week to figure out how they were getting out! I was already in the process of building a larger coop and much larger outdoor area when I got mine, thank goodness! They also dig a LOT!! So in too small of a space it becomes torn up pretty quickly. They don't like to be handled, and that started very young. Some of them are better than others about it, but when I have to handle one they screech and holler like you are killing them. And they are fast! No way to catch one unless it's cooped, or you use a net.
Here's a couple of pictures of some of the escapees in progress:
View attachment 3859862
View attachment 3859863

Oh my! They sound quite wild, I wonder how they would be crossed with something tamer, character and Mareks resistance

They sound a bit like my experience with guineas.