Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by tnchickenut, May 13, 2012.
It's easier if you NEVER name them any thing but KFC, Lunch or Dinner..........
I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but it is inaccurate. Greenfire Farms has a pattern of importing unrelated bloodlines over a period of years in order to boost the genetic diversity of the breeds we raise. For example, we've now imported four different bloodlines of cream legbars, four bloodlines of isbars, four of Bresse, two of Bielefelders, two of Swedish flower hens, and three of Sulmtalers, just to name a few. That's why we have wheaten, gold duckwing, and pure white Sulmtalers.
You talk of bloodlines, but how many birds do you import for each bloodline, and how many make it into the breeding pens? I honestly thought you had white Sulmtalers from an unexpected hatch, not because you specifically imported white Sulmtalers. For those of us raising wheaten Sulmtalers, there are in effect only two lines available in the US - Widget Creek and Greenfire Farms. Please enlighten us if I am mistaken on my information.
1. Are white Sulmtaler Het. Dominant white or recessive?
2. Do they carry carrying S? (silver)
3 What color is chick down at hatch? Smokey, pale yellow, white, creamy?
4. Is there any "brassiness" in their adult plumage?
5. Are they "sports" ? If yes, out of which color?
Widget Creek Ranch is in southwest Arizona. It gets HOT here (3 digits June through September). The Sulmtalers don't like the heat but given enough shade and cool water they will do fine. A well ventilated coop is a must and we have evaporative cooling and misters installed for the really hot days. 80-ies is not really anything to be concerned about. Like most breeds they should not even be stressed up to 90° F. They really like digging holes in moist ground under a tree .
WC here. We are not huge in the business and don't claim to be pros like Greenfire. Our birds are from one shipment but the farm we imported from had diverse bloodlines to begin with. And as most would agree really good lines at that. Good news is, they are not related to GF at all so there is some diversity. Because the Sulmtalers are so popular we are planing on getting an additional shipment from a source that seems to have great lines as well. But it will be a while. For small ranches like ours importing is a big and complicated endeavor .
White Sulmtalers are very rare in mainland Europe to my knowledge and the gene pool can't be too big. They are in the standard though. Wheatens were the only color really "widespread". All other colors are either brand new in the Standard or being introduced this year (blue-wheatens for example did not make it last year but hopefully will this year).
For those of you that want to know more about Sulmtalers, the only available extensive source is a book by Peter Pensold. It is not easy to get in the USA and it is written in German.
Hey there CA,
It seems like this thread is a little hit and miss. We sure hope that it can continue and be a source of information and comradery for Sulmtaler enthusiasts. We're really looking forward to hearing from you about adding one of your cockerels to our flock. We have some great examples from GF, both Wheaten and GDW, and a magnificent hen from you all at WC. Our goal is to get a sound foundation flock with decent diversity and try and develop some premium meat birds. So far we love this breed, although ours tend to be a little skittish. We have another set on the way from GF. Here's hoping this thread flourishes.
-Brice @ SF
Glad you are on board with Sulmtaler.
We use the "Hogan method".
Simply put, it's multiple breeding pens of the SAME line. Pen A, B, C etc.
Selected pullets born in pen A are bred back to their sire in pen A etc. This is done with careful record keeping. After ~3-5 years "swap" pens. This can be done continuously for 30 years or as some will say ~much, much longer without the introduction of outside blood.
When one choses to outcross, the genetic variation can be quite time consuming to stabilize uniform TYPE as each line has it's own challenges. In outcrossing, the general rule is not to bring more than 1/4 foreign blood at a time and only through the dam.
Probably not what you wanted to hear at this point but once type is stabilized, the Hogan breeding method would work best for your situation.
Hatcheries use "Flock mating" which is why they tend to have poor stock. They cannot afford to implement selection for breed improvement, pen mate or stud mate etc.
Thanks for the comment and the welcome. No worries, we are familiar with line breeding and "The Call of the Hen," from Mr. Hogan. It seems like its really a question of the quality of the parent stock and what foundational genetics you're dealing with. Even on this very thread, people are concerned about the depth of the genetic pool. Many of the early breeders in America were working with lines that were composites of not only other lines, but other breeds. With the exception of the Dominique, and possibly even your Javas, heritage American breeds were made up of a very "deep" pool of genetics, perhaps even a very muddled pool. With that as a foundation, line breeding seems to be a very efficient way of pulling out the desired characteristics and avoiding the potential pandora's box (as a favorite RIR breeder of ours would say) that can result when outcrossing a developed line. That said, when there is minimal diversity available, it would seem that line breeding might exacerbate an already stressed genetic pool. Bringing in other lines to first increase the pool's depth might not be a bad idea. Obviously there are many views on this, and it sounds like you really know your stuff and have had great success. Thanks for the conversation and for sharing your experiences.
Thanks for the compliment.
I should have looked at your avatar and website before replying. Nice!
Yes, the "Red Man".
I haven't noticed any signs of inbreeding depression in my Sulmtaler flock which generally expresses as a decrease in size, low hatch rates, health/vigor, physical deformities etc.
In fact, quite the opposite.
Best success to you at Sunbird Farms!