Sumatra Thread!

[Infnityhrt]

"Finally a judge willing to do so"? Are you of the opinion that Mr Adkins is the only judge who follows the Standard? I assure you he's not & in fact there's nothing unusual about it. I can't think of any judges who don't judge by the Standard.
The point Adkins was making in his article concerning the length of Cornish large fowl legs illustrates one of the shortcomings of the Standard. The Standard calls for a " round, moderately short, stout" shank. Here's where the subjectivity comes in. I know what "moderately short" looks like to me but it may well look different to Mr Adkins. Moderately isn't a very exact term & it is certainly subject to interpretation.

. I understand that small, short, tall, long, those are all how someone interprets them, but Black, yellow, multiple spurs and weight is NOT an interpretation, Weight is a Fact. Black is fact, yellow, they either have multiple spurs or they don't. It's not an grey area, it's black and white, it is or it isn't, and as far weight, they should be 5lbs at a good solid weight for each individual, I understand that if your birds healthy solid weight is 8 lbs then you starve it to make 5 lbs, then that is not a bird in good condition, so don't think that I am saying starve your birds to make weight, I am saying breed your birds so that they are in good condition at 5lbs.

 

[championsumatra]

the thing is that my birds are big boned so a good weight for my males is 7lbs and my females being at 6lbs my sumatras are also tall. I do have a rooster right now who is at 8lbs or more but he is always eating and is very lazy. I have been chaceing him around the yard to get him in good shape he is starting to loss some of the weight. I think 8lbs is too fat. I will let them get to 7lbs but not 8lbs.

 

[Infnityhrt]

the thing is that my birds are big boned so a good weight for my males is 7lbs and my females being at 6lbs my sumatras are also tall. I do have a rooster right now who is at 8lbs or more but he is always eating and is very lazy. I have been chaceing him around the yard to get him in good shape he is starting to loss some of the weight. I think 8lbs is too fat. I will let them get to 7lbs but not 8lbs.

Ok, so I am not trying to be mean, but your birds according to the 2010 Standard of Perfection, pg 33 should be disqualified. This is what it says under disqualifications
WEIGHTS
Weight is a breed characteristic.

Any bird (except the Beltsville Small White Turkeys) that deviates more than 20% either up or down from the weight listed for its breed, sex and age should be disqualified.

Example - - In a bird with a standard weight of 5 pounds, a range of 4 to 6 pounds is within the scope of "the standard weight". This rule applies to all large fowl, bantams, ducks, geese, Guinea Fowl and turkeys (except Beltsville Small Whites).

That is quoted directly from the standard

on page 28 It has...
INTERPRETATION OF STANDARD
for
JUDGES --BREEDERS--EXHIBITORS
Size and Weight
(A) Weighing: When size and weight cannot be determined by comparison, it is advisable to require the weighing of the specimens. ( How many times has a judge ever weighed a bird,,says they should..I think they should start, maybe not weigh them all but maybe weigh the largest and the smallest to see where they line up)
(b) Applying Disqualifications; Disqualifying weights for adult specimens should apply at all times but due allowance should be made for decreased weight in adult birds in the molt during the late summer and fall season. Disqualifying weights for young specimens shall not apply until December 1st (hmm... lets see.. allowance for decreased, not increased weights)
(c) Interpretation of Weight Clauses: The weight clauses shall not be interpreted to mean that a small and over fat specimen fulfills the Standard requirements. Weights must be in proportion to size at the same time preserving the ideal shape and type for the breed. ( all ready covered that in the last thing I wrote about a bird being to skinny or fat for the size)
(d) on waterfowl, so not going to put it.

So if any judge or breeder is telling you to be breeding Sumatras weighing more than 6 lbs, then they are not following the Standard, and therefore, not upholding the Standard to what it is written for and not doing what they should be. If I have a large bird and its disqualified, good, then I can't argue it.. its black and white and the judge is following the standard, that is what it is written for and been in place for over 100 years, If they don't like I said not doing their job that they are hired and its their duty to do. Same with us as breeders weight can't be argued, it is or it isn't its there in black and white. If you want to breed birds that are to large, then its wrong according to the standard. ( just sayin')

 

[NYREDS]

. I understand that small, short, tall, long, those are all how someone interprets them, but Black, yellow, multiple spurs and weight is NOT an interpretation, Weight is a Fact. Black is fact, yellow, they either have multiple spurs or they don't. It's not an grey area, it's black and white, it is or it isn't, and as far weight, they should be 5lbs at a good solid weight for each individual, I understand that if your birds healthy solid weight is 8 lbs then you starve it to make 5 lbs, then that is not a bird in good condition, so don't think that I am saying starve your birds to make weight, I am saying breed your birds so that they are in good condition at 5lbs.

None of which relates to the Adkins' article you cited. Of course identifying breed characteristics must be adhered to in judging. Is it your belief that most judges don't use these characteristics in determining placements? If so, do you have any evidence to support that? Any judge who routinely ignores the Standard should be sanctioned & there is a process for that.

 

[championsumatra]

umm I think I would have been DQ a long time ago if that where the case. I really don't think I would be put in champion row....

 

[cubakid]

I completely agree with infnityhrt, breeding birds to weigh five pounds is very different from conditioning a bird to be 5 pounds. Lots of flight is important for Sumatras as that's what they did in Indonesia, they flew from island to island. They would probably burn fat through flight. I do like that your birds are tall, the Sumatra seen in the show rooms often have short legs to make the tail look better. I would find the smallest pair you have and breed them in the late spring, take these offspring and breed them into your line. It will decrease size and be genetically related to your tall birds with good type. Then just breed for a maxed weight of five pounds on your cocks. Just something to think about.
Zach

 

[Infnityhrt]

None of which relates to the Adkins' article you cited. Of course identifying breed characteristics must be adhered to in judging. Is it your belief that most judges don't use these characteristics in determining placements? If so, do you have any evidence to support that? Any judge who routinely ignores the Standard should be sanctioned & there is a process for that.

I am seeing Sumatras getting bigger and bigger, I am just getting back into showing again, My daughter used to show them a few years ago, when each of the kids were doing their own breeds and we were very successful over the years, we didn't show much except the fair the last 3 years, still very successfully, but then as we began going again this year,( we are still doing well), but with the birds on the larger side and some of the ones we have seen definitely weigh to much. Our Dun roo is solid and tight and we put him on the scale and he is exactly 5 lbs so I know he is the correct size, but he looks smaller than what is at the shows, We have a black cockerel that we showed that was almost 5 lbs this spring but he was almost a year, he placed 1st but small class, we didn't show a cock, but the ones there had to be pushing 8 lbs if they were in good weight, they were Big, and they weren't disqualified, I just thought, that is not what a Sumatra should be, yet judges are placing them and breeders are telling them to breed bigger, same with the Faverolles we have, I recently got some from show lines and seen whats at the shows and they are 3-4 pounds overweight for the standard, so it frustrates me. I think my 8 pound Faverolle is much typier than the longer legs and huge body of the showline, but he looks like a midget, and the judges aren't disqualifying them. To me there is too much of the bigger is better mentality, not what it should be. Sorry, Champion but you fall into that category, and throw names of a lot of people who seem to also, so I guess NYREDS she is proof, if her birds are over the standard in weight and she is in champion row, judges are placing, so breeders are breeding them. So who's responsibility is it? The judges? if you don't place them and write size on the tag, then breeder won't breed them, or the Breeder's who shouldn't be putting birds in the cages that have disqualifications? Seems like we need to work together

 

[Infnityhrt]

umm I think I would have been DQ a long time ago if that where the case. I really don't think I would be put in champion row....

Yeah, but your breeding them to big, obviously if your birds are 6 pounds or more and your hens are more than 5 you are not breeding according to standard and the judges aren't doing what they are suppose to be doing. Should the judges decide to start weighing birds and following the standard more closer in weights I bet close to half of all Large Fowl poultry would be disqualified.

 

[championsumatra]

Quote:
you know what before you start saying that breeders and judges are not going by the standard I would check yourself because I can name 5 thing that you have said that was not written in the standard for one game like? it may say it for yokhamas but not for sumatras thinking they are game like is an opinion not a fact. and thinking that all sumatras with pink feet do not have multiple spears I showed you a hen that had pick bottom feet that had the multiple spears?? I could go on but I do not have the time to do this! I am on vacation. they are good Judges Sam bush is the vice persident of the american poultry association?? and he liked my birds?? oh and tome kernan like them as well.

 

[Infnityhrt]

you know what before you start saying that breeders and judges are not going by the standard I would check yourself because I can name 5 thing that you have said that was not written in the standard for one game like? it may say it for yokhamas but not for sumatras thinking they are game like is an opinion not a fact. and thinking that all sumatras with pink feet do not have multiple spears I showed you a hen that had pick bottom feet that had the multiple spears?? I could go on but I do not have the time to do this! I am on vacation. they are good Judges Sam bush is the vice persident of the american poultry association?? and he liked my birds?? oh and tome kernan like them as well.

Maybe you better read your standard, I quoted it and it said that if the bird should be 5 pounds.. which is what a Sumatra cock should be, that if it more than 6 pounds it should be disqualified, it's pretty clear, but that's because people want to make it what they want it, not go by what it says. It's a problem with more than just the Sumatra. I have explained before by what I mean by game like and its the more alert look and firmer look, more athletic, like they are at 5 pounds not like the big over sized, loose feathered thing they are becoming, and I never said anything about not being able to get multiple spurs from pink feet, it was about leg color.
If its not written in the Standard, then it doesn't matter does it., pink feet aren't called for, so why would you breed them, then the bird is not meeting a written standard of yellow bottoms.
The Sumatra was originally imported from Sumatra in 1847 to the U.S. and Europe as fighting cocks for the purpose of cockfighting, today they are bred for exhibition. Sounds like they should be smaller, alert, and athletic, They were admitted into the standard in 1883, over 100 years ago and fairly soon after they were imported so I am pretty sure the 5 pounds they called for are of a tight, solid bird, not a big fat one. but again that is interpretation, but the weight isn't and you can throw all the names you want, but they are not following the standard on weight, If you asked them, they probably will tell you to follow the standard, if they don't.. don't know what to tell you, except it is what I am seeing. That is what I have been saying why buy a standard, seems like a waste of money if people are just going to make their own standard to suit what they want, and you as a breeder are going to breed birds that are too big if the judges are going to place them. If the judge started disqualifying them like they should, you would change your breeding pretty quick.