Suspected Internal Laying: Worth Antibiotics?

[buffy-the-eggpile-layer]

I have had hens (of all ages) go to the nesting box and looking they are laying, but then not.
It only happen occasionally though, but none of those have ever had any problems.
The only hen that I have lost to a reproductive problem did not do it, interestingly enough.

This is heartening--thanks. I've had bad luck, I guess. Every hen that's done it wound up dying of reproductive disease (except one, now that I recall!). So I got a bit scarred from seeing that!

 

[buffy-the-eggpile-layer]

No, I would not pre-emptively treat with abx.

She's eating/drinking/active.

I'll just keep observing her then. She worries me since last summer she had occasional issues with soft shell eggs and then a case of salpingitis. She recovered fully and was laying again since... so fingers crossed! If i lose another hen to internal laying, I'll be devastated... such a terrible way to go and the only one I've seen taking my hens so far.

 

[ChknMama50]

Internal laying is when the egg is layed internally and deposited in the abdomen instead of externally. This typically occurs due to trauma to the oviduct, an infection, or a defective shell gland. Signs include the chicken acting like they're laying eggs according to their normal routine, without actually producing the egg (this is often the first sign in my experience). Meanwhile you'll notice increased swelling/firmness of the abdomen, which is indicative of an accumulation of internal egg masses/fluid. You might also notice that the crop no longer empties fully, and often it takes on a doughy quality. Poops become sickly--strained and/or tinged the color of yolk. At this point, the hen very likely becomes visibly ill or lethargic.

I think sometimes infections like EYP or salpingitis lead to internal laying; other times the internal laying causes infections like EYP (it's a real chicken or the egg type riddle!). Sadly, while antibiotics might treat the infection making the hen ill, internal laying is a chronic issue and will typically return. I'm always willing to try my best, in any case, as there are rare instances where hens can make full recoveries and resume laying in the future. Otherwise, the only cures are surgery and/or a hormonal implant, which are extremely costly.

Internal laying is most common in production breeds like ISA Browns or sex links. They're bred to lay like crazy and tend to burn out due to reproductive issues around 2-3 y/o (though some go on to live longer). I've also found it to be common in hatchery stock chickens across the board (versus breeder quality). So far, all of my losses have been due to internal laying/EYP, excepting a rooster who had a heart defect. I think it is way more common that it's made out to be--and often the cause of sudden/mysterious deaths of laying hens.

Very nice summary!! ;-)
Tough stuff.... I have one of those "bred to lay like crazy" chickens (love that description- so true!! Know NOW...but) who is dealing with this now...

BUT had a little Easter miracle and pretty sure it was her that laid that am... she's had less yellow in her 'poo' and seems to be feeling a bit better- haven't weighed her yet today- but she had lost a good amount of size/wt when I was giving her the second dose (have ALL the details in a post too long to even get help ;-) but...) so I'm going for it on my own judgement and planning to give her a third dose (at least) today... (long acting drug so basically would give her 9 days coverage) but taking this one day at a time....
I know it's gonna most likely be a chronic struggle and kinda sucks we're coming OUT of the winter and not going into it which would have helped give her body enough of a break to maybe completely heal...

Any suggestions re: min. length of antibiotic treatment for EYP? (if seeing positive results...) Also have given her several doses of Meloxicam as I've also gathered is done to help with the swelling and resulting pain of it all.... hard to dose as she had gained so much fluid weight- but we'll see what she is today when I get up there! She lost 1.4lbs in the 3 days between 1st and 2nd doses....

Thanks for any input!!

 

[buffy-the-eggpile-layer]

Very nice summary!! ;-)
Tough stuff.... I have one of those "bred to lay like crazy" chickens (love that description- so true!! Know NOW...but) who is dealing with this now...

BUT had a little Easter miracle and pretty sure it was her that laid that am... she's had less yellow in her 'poo' and seems to be feeling a bit better- haven't weighed her yet today- but she had lost a good amount of size/wt when I was giving her the second dose (have ALL the details in a post too long to even get help ;-) but...) so I'm going for it on my own judgement and planning to give her a third dose (at least) today... (long acting drug so basically would give her 9 days coverage) but taking this one day at a time....
I know it's gonna most likely be a chronic struggle and kinda sucks we're coming OUT of the winter and not going into it which would have helped give her body enough of a break to maybe completely heal...

Any suggestions re: min. length of antibiotic treatment for EYP? (if seeing positive results...) Also have given her several doses of Meloxicam as I've also gathered is done to help with the swelling and resulting pain of it all.... hard to dose as she had gained so much fluid weight- but we'll see what she is today when I get up there! She lost 1.4lbs in the 3 days between 1st and 2nd doses....

Thanks for any input!!

I'm happy to hear about your Easter miracle! Hopefully she's continuing to improve.

I think minimum length of time depends on the drug, but whatever I use, I tend to go on the longer end of the range since eyp can be so nasty. For instance, I use baytril 10 (have had the best results with it) for 5 full days, 2 doses a day.

Additionally, inflammation plays a key role in causing eyp and reproductive stress. In lieu of metacam, which is hard on their stomachs in my experience and causes appetite to plummet, I use 1/3 tsp turmeric daily (mixed into a mash with a couple dashes of black pepper and a little glob of coconut oil for absorption). I make a turmeric mash for any hen suspected of reproductive stress and for the whole flock quite regularly as a preventative.

Finally, probiotics are important alongside any antibiotic regimen. I've found lactose-free kefir to be absolutely amazing for poorly hens. They love it, it heals their GI, and it gets them eating. You can offer it in a little dish with some of their favorite fruit mashed in. Mine like berries or diced up watermelon.

 

[ChknMama50]

I'm happy to hear about your Easter miracle! Hopefully she's continuing to improve.

I think minimum length of time depends on the drug, but whatever I use, I tend to go on the longer end of the range since eyp can be so nasty. For instance, I use baytril 10 (have had the best results with it) for 5 full days, 2 doses a day.

Additionally, inflammation plays a key role in causing eyp and reproductive stress. In lieu of metacam, which is hard on their stomachs in my experience and causes appetite to plummet, I use 1/3 tsp turmeric daily (mixed into a mash with a couple dashes of black pepper and a little glob of coconut oil for absorption). I make a turmeric mash for any hen suspected of reproductive stress and for the whole flock quite regularly as a preventative.

Finally, probiotics are important alongside any antibiotic regimen. I've found lactose-free kefir to be absolutely amazing for poorly hens. They love it, it heals their GI, and it gets them eating. You can offer it in a little dish with some of their favorite fruit mashed in. Mine like berries or diced up watermelon.

Thank you SO very much!!! I appreciate all the info you took the time to share!

I’ve now read in a couple places that Baytril is their 1st option for this problem…probably would have been mine too as it was top of list I found of drugs commonly used by vets to treat EYP…and had good experience with a kitty tolerating it when he couldn’t keep many others down- but couldn’t get my hands on in it very fast and as you may or may not have seen (yes- long post) I was pretty late on figuring this out for various reasons so wanted to get something in her system as quickly as possible to give her the best chance!

She is continuing to improve but I’m noticing now up close that she’s still a bit stand offish- though for her, it’s not ALL her illness, as she does get picked on and often won’t fight for “best of” if something special is brought out. I’ve been putting chopped up eggs on top of their fermented food mix about every other time I do it so a couple days a week… but I’ll save her a little bowl and try to entice her privately…
My biggest problem is getting her alone without causing undue stress! I’m thrilled to hear your ideas re: kefir and just got some for them but pretty sure it is dairy-will have to look!- but they don’t have any fav fruits yet as I’ve been trying to not give them much other than their food and normal supplements since we’ve been battling diarrhea on & off with whole flock, but did get some blackberries to try injecting with ACV when my little sour crop chicken was still doughy after over a week of suggested treatments- better finally on Acidified Copper Sulfate… tomorrow is finally our last day!

Also I’ve noticed that the yellow in her “poo” is back on her but… Yesterday, I hardly noticed any yellow in her poop finally… but was looking in the run and in the hemp bedding under the roost so much easier to see color on wood floor/paper towels!
Don’t fully understand the ups and downs of EYP yet as this is my first possible experience with it…I know we may be battling this chronically even if she gets thru this initial infection…

Evidence of swelling is perhaps the best improvement. Haven’t weighed her today yet but 2 days ago she was down to what I suspect would be normal for her-4.9lbs from a high of 6.2lbs on 3/31! Feels much better too! It was huge and kinda soft the very first time I noticed it… more like the ascites I suspect Puffy had before she died rather quickly…then was very firm and was visibly causing her to stand different and she wasn’t able to run… not totally normal but this pic is from this afternoon! You can see her abnormal tail feathers ( ? I’d she gonna lose those hanging oddly now too?) but with the loss of feathers around her legs, you can still see some difference- she’s def a little trooper!!

I’ll give her a reduced dosage again of Meloxicam until I can get some turmeric but makes total sense!! I have inflammatory issues and have looked into it for me- but usually with herbals you have to take consistently for some time to get real benefit… maybe their tiny bodies are quite diff- love the idea of using it as preventative for flock too, as all these gals were bred to produce and have had one problem or another in re: reproductive system!

VERY good to know though that it could be causing a diminished appetite as I fear her wt kids will keep going!! We’ll work on that for sure!!

Thanks again!!

 

[ChknMama50]

Well update- Woodsy had a bit of a setback the day of my last post...think it's cause she didn't get much of the antibiotic from Dose #3 so I gave a 4th one a day early as she was not looking so great again as mentioned above...

That was as successful as the first one... she's lost all that belly weight it appears but I am watching her closely as she's really got her appetite back it seems though getting her to eat special stuff to get the Turmeric 'golden paste' I made using a recipe that matches what you mentioned... she ate some of it and has had a good couple days- got lots of time out in the yard thanks to her "daddy" who's been working on the outside of the run this weekend FINALLY finishing our "predator shield" and the rocks we got to put over it... looking nice but mostly they liked being out with him and ALL over the pasture and in barn for really nice dirt baths in the afternoon sun- vs the one in their run in the shade! (poor things eh?!) I'm kinda surprised honestly that she lost all that so quickly both times... to think I was resigned to it being an untreatable "water belly" (ascites) problem... so happy it seems like I was way off- had tunnel vision from Puffy's death still I think! (Now I'll see this anytime I see a big belly.... haha) Just gotta stop and carefully look at each situation with an open mind!!

SO after all that she got technically 12 days not 9 but again, I know she missed maybe even almost all of dose #3- and the second one had to be repeated right then due to bit a diff snafu... I'm gonna wait to make any further decisions until I get up there today in person to see how she's doing- as long as her belly seems ok- may work more on her nutrition, gut health and making sure she doesn't end up with crop issues that will keep her from getting the nutrition she needs from her food much less the inflammatory control from the turmeric She really did seem to lose her appetite that could or could not be related to the Meloxicam but thanks for the heads up!! Really only got a few doses of that as well... was being quite cautious...

Well, we'll see how the week goes- they are back on plain water finally after 10 full days on ACS for her sister's resistant sour crop issue... which unfortunately seems to be back now in combo with what appears to be at least a partial blockage- it'll feel super hard- like a little golf ball when I pick her up in say the afternoon, but after a bit of massaging it, it softens up pretty quickly but yesterday I felt like it got "doughy" again.... Oye...
fits the 'patient' too- as she seems pale and has lost a good chunk of the weight she put back on pretty quickly! ;-( She's otherwise acting not AS normal as she was but is still eating and acting normal esp out in the yard- she will stand around more in the run but is eating and showing some interest in checking out the ground for any treats left- tried giving them some bottles drilled with holes to try 'busting the boredom' they seem to be having- a problem as a few really picking on the others!

May switch to Baytril if I can get it delivered ok- to give her orally- I don't feel comfortable putting in her water as I don't want to separate her that long, and don't feel she'll finish it- would rather give it orally so not sure which one to get but sounds like I need the lower concentration- 2.5% vs. the 10% so that the dose will be more easily measurable!
Hoping it's not needed of course!! Seems sometimes, if I go ahead and order all I need to be prepared, then I won't need it- works for me!! ;-) haha

Like I said- need to get her gut happy as she's still having loose stools but now not seeing the yellow - which had come back the day of my last post here....
Gotta get some probiotics in her as well after those antibiotics- can't deal with a second sour crop!! ;-)
Starting to feel like it's just gonna be a bit of a revolving door around here with the reproductive and crop issues... Thanking God my big girl who's had trouble with soft shelled eggs who has SUCH a large low abd seems to be holding her own so far- she's looked like this for almost her entire adult life so don't think there is any active urgent issues going on in there- she's not laying daily by any means but she is doing OK- except my two sick ones, it seems we've finally got some nice poop going on- never thought I'd be so happy to see 'normal' chicken poop!!

 

[ChickNanny13]

Thanks for the update

 

[buffy-the-eggpile-layer]

Thank you SO very much!!! I appreciate all the info you took the time to share!

I’ve now read in a couple places that Baytril is their 1st option for this problem…probably would have been mine too as it was top of list I found of drugs commonly used by vets to treat EYP…and had good experience with a kitty tolerating it when he couldn’t keep many others down- but couldn’t get my hands on in it very fast and as you may or may not have seen (yes- long post) I was pretty late on figuring this out for various reasons so wanted to get something in her system as quickly as possible to give her the best chance!

She is continuing to improve but I’m noticing now up close that she’s still a bit stand offish- though for her, it’s not ALL her illness, as she does get picked on and often won’t fight for “best of” if something special is brought out. I’ve been putting chopped up eggs on top of their fermented food mix about every other time I do it so a couple days a week… but I’ll save her a little bowl and try to entice her privately…
My biggest problem is getting her alone without causing undue stress! I’m thrilled to hear your ideas re: kefir and just got some for them but pretty sure it is dairy-will have to look!- but they don’t have any fav fruits yet as I’ve been trying to not give them much other than their food and normal supplements since we’ve been battling diarrhea on & off with whole flock, but did get some blackberries to try injecting with ACV when my little sour crop chicken was still doughy after over a week of suggested treatments- better finally on Acidified Copper Sulfate… tomorrow is finally our last day!

Also I’ve noticed that the yellow in her “poo” is back on her but… Yesterday, I hardly noticed any yellow in her poop finally… but was looking in the run and in the hemp bedding under the roost so much easier to see color on wood floor/paper towels!
Don’t fully understand the ups and downs of EYP yet as this is my first possible experience with it…I know we may be battling this chronically even if she gets thru this initial infection…

Evidence of swelling is perhaps the best improvement. Haven’t weighed her today yet but 2 days ago she was down to what I suspect would be normal for her-4.9lbs from a high of 6.2lbs on 3/31! Feels much better too! It was huge and kinda soft the very first time I noticed it… more like the ascites I suspect Puffy had before she died rather quickly…then was very firm and was visibly causing her to stand different and she wasn’t able to run… not totally normal but this pic is from this afternoon! You can see her abnormal tail feathers ( ? I’d she gonna lose those hanging oddly now too?) but with the loss of feathers around her legs, you can still see some difference- she’s def a little trooper!!

I’ll give her a reduced dosage again of Meloxicam until I can get some turmeric but makes total sense!! I have inflammatory issues and have looked into it for me- but usually with herbals you have to take consistently for some time to get real benefit… maybe their tiny bodies are quite diff- love the idea of using it as preventative for flock too, as all these gals were bred to produce and have had one problem or another in re: reproductive system!

VERY good to know though that it could be causing a diminished appetite as I fear her wt kids will keep going!! We’ll work on that for sure!!

Thanks again!!

She looks like she's improving--especially the abdominal swelling! You can tell from her comb, though, that she's still under the weather a bit. I hope with time you will get her there.

I credit lactose-free kefir, oregano oil in water, and small amounts of cinnamon cbd oil in helping to perk up my sickest (in addition to abx/anti-inflammatory regimen).

 

[buffy-the-eggpile-layer]

Well update- Woodsy had a bit of a setback the day of my last post...think it's cause she didn't get much of the antibiotic from Dose #3 so I gave a 4th one a day early as she was not looking so great again as mentioned above...

That was as successful as the first one... she's lost all that belly weight it appears but I am watching her closely as she's really got her appetite back it seems though getting her to eat special stuff to get the Turmeric 'golden paste' I made using a recipe that matches what you mentioned... she ate some of it and has had a good couple days- got lots of time out in the yard thanks to her "daddy" who's been working on the outside of the run this weekend FINALLY finishing our "predator shield" and the rocks we got to put over it... looking nice but mostly they liked being out with him and ALL over the pasture and in barn for really nice dirt baths in the afternoon sun- vs the one in their run in the shade! (poor things eh?!) I'm kinda surprised honestly that she lost all that so quickly both times... to think I was resigned to it being an untreatable "water belly" (ascites) problem... so happy it seems like I was way off- had tunnel vision from Puffy's death still I think! (Now I'll see this anytime I see a big belly.... haha) Just gotta stop and carefully look at each situation with an open mind!!

SO after all that she got technically 12 days not 9 but again, I know she missed maybe even almost all of dose #3- and the second one had to be repeated right then due to bit a diff snafu... I'm gonna wait to make any further decisions until I get up there today in person to see how she's doing- as long as her belly seems ok- may work more on her nutrition, gut health and making sure she doesn't end up with crop issues that will keep her from getting the nutrition she needs from her food much less the inflammatory control from the turmeric She really did seem to lose her appetite that could or could not be related to the Meloxicam but thanks for the heads up!! Really only got a few doses of that as well... was being quite cautious...

Well, we'll see how the week goes- they are back on plain water finally after 10 full days on ACS for her sister's resistant sour crop issue... which unfortunately seems to be back now in combo with what appears to be at least a partial blockage- it'll feel super hard- like a little golf ball when I pick her up in say the afternoon, but after a bit of massaging it, it softens up pretty quickly but yesterday I felt like it got "doughy" again.... Oye...
fits the 'patient' too- as she seems pale and has lost a good chunk of the weight she put back on pretty quickly! ;-( She's otherwise acting not AS normal as she was but is still eating and acting normal esp out in the yard- she will stand around more in the run but is eating and showing some interest in checking out the ground for any treats left- tried giving them some bottles drilled with holes to try 'busting the boredom' they seem to be having- a problem as a few really picking on the others!

May switch to Baytril if I can get it delivered ok- to give her orally- I don't feel comfortable putting in her water as I don't want to separate her that long, and don't feel she'll finish it- would rather give it orally so not sure which one to get but sounds like I need the lower concentration- 2.5% vs. the 10% so that the dose will be more easily measurable!
Hoping it's not needed of course!! Seems sometimes, if I go ahead and order all I need to be prepared, then I won't need it- works for me!! ;-) haha

Like I said- need to get her gut happy as she's still having loose stools but now not seeing the yellow - which had come back the day of my last post here....
Gotta get some probiotics in her as well after those antibiotics- can't deal with a second sour crop!! ;-)
Starting to feel like it's just gonna be a bit of a revolving door around here with the reproductive and crop issues... Thanking God my big girl who's had trouble with soft shelled eggs who has SUCH a large low abd seems to be holding her own so far- she's looked like this for almost her entire adult life so don't think there is any active urgent issues going on in there- she's not laying daily by any means but she is doing OK- except my two sick ones, it seems we've finally got some nice poop going on- never thought I'd be so happy to see 'normal' chicken poop!!

It sounds like, despite the setback, she's doing better. I 100% recommend baytril, dosed directly (not in water) if you can get some shipped to you. I recommend 10% because it's such a small amount needed (at .05 ml/lb) that it's easy to syringe down without risk of aspiration.

I have one hen who lays too frequently, an EE, and as such, tends towards soft shell eggs (with high risk of broken eggs leading to eyp--which happened once). During peak laying seasons, I supplement her with extra calcium + vitamin D, feed her daily turmeric mash, and take her into a dark area in my basement for ~6ish hours a day to cut down on the amount of sunlight making her so productive. This slows her down enough to prevent shell deterioration and broken eggs. Just food for thought!

 

[ChknMama50]

Hey there- sorry out of touch for so long!!
Just wanted to check in and see how "Cherry" has been doing...?! Always hate to bring it up if things didn't go well but want you to know I care!!

Well our update- The two "sick" ones are holding their own and seemed to be doing quite well most of the time I've not been on here.... really didn't expect her to bounce back like she did but the difference after each dose of that LA-200 antibiotic I used SQ was truly amazing in hindsight- unless it was somehow coincidence and I don't believe too much in that! (though I usually rule nothing out! ;-) )
Haven't given her anything other than starting a routine of mixing my "golden paste" mixture from reading up on giving Turmeric to animals- yeah the powder itself would be much easier to mix in less noticeably and will try it if things get worse while doing this still- but supposedly cooking the powder really helps it's efficacy from what I can read... plus the freshly cracked black pepper and fat source- using virgin unrefined coconut oil as well.

she finally stopped avoiding eating their food that has this mixed in and has been really doing well.... did notice that she has POSSIBLY gained back some weight in her belly area but I may be a bit paranoid but watching her closely... will try to get her weighed again soon - she was really dodging me the last two times I tried so I am trying to make life easier- not go making trouble ;-) haha If she's dodging me that good then she's feeling Ok at least!!
PeeWee has finally also started to try avoiding me as well- quite a change! but can still catch her somewhat easily so checked her weight a couple days ago and she was up to 4lbs even!! That's the highest since she lost so much her keel bone stuck out big time! She's looking great though her crop did start to feel "doughy" again if I massaged it at all while checking her out...though yesterday on their last full day of my second 10day round of ACS (after a full 7 day rest period off it) her crop was finally not getting doughy- just really ?squishy and honestly a bit small...but I'll take it!! I've felt abnormal crops so long now that I'm starting to question what it SHOULD feel like again

She was pooping normal in front of me for the first time in forever it seems as was Woodsy - out in the run or in the yard...but both STILL seem to having diarrhea overnight under their spots on the roost! ?! FLAT big areas....least they're going as PeeWee really did go so little while she was more blocked than I even realized- DID finallly see longer pieces of very thin fibrous type grass/weed in her first normal poop I saw- was sticking out the top...haha so maybe she really has moved the majority thru! I'm trying hard to keep the grass from getting too long though my DH thinks I'm insane... points to all the chickens on our "road" who just free range all over the place with AWFUL long grass/weeds.... I say- well who knows how they're doing!! They lose chickens left and right too but don't seem to upset by it so getting an impacted crop seems like it wouldn't even hit their radar!
Not being mean- to each their own! Just defending MYself! haha

Hope you are doing well.... Still think of y'all often!!