Swedish Flower Hen Thread

[jbarrett]

Don't get discouraged. Remember...if it's worth doing, you will have to hit some brick walls. The more questions you have to answer, the better you get at it. Keep on doing what you're doing. Be always ethical. Realize that what you do affects so many honest, hard-working people.

thank you for encouragment, i have put lots of thought ans been researching alot and dont want it to be worthless!

 

[jbarrett]

I will post here... with reservations. People feel very strongly about this issue, as do I. First let me say that I don't think anyone who frequents this site continues to visit this site because they "can't stand those ugly speckled chickens. What can we do to change them and make them beautiful?" We ALL love them for what they are, as they are!

Now.... since we all agree, (hopefully), the question that we are asking is: What can we do to promote this beautiful breed that we all love?
I don't think anyone ever suggested that by working to get the Swedish Flower Hen recognized as a breed, that we were somehow attempting to deconstruct the breed, and create a new animal from it. I, for one, feel relatively certain that jb's interests (bravo! from me) are purely to create an avenue to better enable us to present this beautiful breed to the public. I think that the concept of these hard working viking chickens scratching out a successful living in the bare, deserted, hostile, Swedish wilderness until the first Darwinian ape evolved into a human, and screwed up everything in their lives is pretty silly! I am being sarcastic, but it is to make a point, not to try to offend anyone. Swedish Flower Hens were farm chickens. Meaning that they lived on farms...owned by farmers....and their wives....who were trying to make a living. They were cared for, fed, protected, and heaven forbid... chosen for particular traits that Mr, or Mrs, liked. And they survived.... "in spite of" ? Give me a break!

I have to say that I would be opposed to a "standard of perfection" that called for (choose your color) red/ blue /black background, with 17 white spots, 4 white flights, and 2 black tail feathers... once again sarcasm, but you get my point. A SOP can be as broad, or as narrow, as you make it. If one person decides... It will be narrow. The more folks involved the broader it will be, which brings us back to what jb has asked for ....input from us! Thanks jb..and good luck...you'll need it!

THANK YOU!! I cant do it without you guys! In this message it is exactly what I am doing.....making a new breed out of SFH is the exact opposite of my goal, and once it is listed on American Livestock Breed CONCERVANCY this will help to ensure the SURVIVAL of the breed, the ALBC will get involved and help us setup PERMANENT BREEDING PROGRAMS to help the breed pure!

 

[jbarrett]

I am not sure this is true. Cream Legbars are just going through writing their SOP to be recognized by the APA. They are using the British SOP as a template, which states the comb should have 5-7 points. The CL SOP had to pick a single number- they chose 6- because a range was not allowed. They also said they had to choose a single color as the start and any additional colors would have to be added later.

Well the people I am conversing with say they understand the vastness of the breed due to being a landrace, so they are making allowences that are needed!

 

[Bernie56]

I am not sure this is true. Cream Legbars are just going through writing their SOP to be recognized by the APA. They are using the British SOP as a template, which states the comb should have 5-7 points. The CL SOP had to pick a single number- they chose 6- because a range was not allowed. They also said they had to choose a single color as the start and any additional colors would have to be added later.

Well I guess you never know until you try right? Standard of Perfection to me, means what is the standard used to determine what is perfect for that breed. I guess that the SOP would generally be used to judge an individual example of the breed. I guess the APA has a right to determine what they list. If they insisted on choosing certain individuals to define the breed, then I would be opposed to being listed by them. Its really not about the title for me, and if they (APA) want to narrowly define the breed we don't need their recognition. We certainly don't need a new and improved RIR.

 

[jbarrett]

Well I guess you never know until you try right? Standard of Perfection to me, means what is the standard used to determine what is perfect for that breed. I guess that the SOP would generally be used to judge an individual example of the breed. I guess the APA has a right to determine what they list. If they insisted on choosing certain individuals to define the breed, then I would be opposed to being listed by them. Its really not about the title for me, and if they (APA) want to narrowly define the breed we don't need their recognition. We certainly don't need a new and improved RIR.

I agree with you 100% if they want to do that to us then I will not continue with what I am doing but as of now they have said there is so much color varriation in the breed they will make allowences, due to it being natural!

 

[dretd]

I agree with you 100% if they want to do that to us then I will not continue with what I am doing but as of now they have said there is so much color varriation in the breed they will make allowences, due to it being natural!

Their flexibility is unexpected and very good news!

A cautionary tale: I have a Border collie ( also a landrace breed) and for Forty years they were a miscellaneous class breed in AKC (APA equvalent) so they could shown without conformation. About 15 years ago AKC said all or nothing to the breeders so they now have the conformation and there are other clubs that continue on for performance only. I have had nonAKC and an AKC Border and will tell you that the AKC status is breeding the landrace out of the breed. The AKC dog I currently have is very beautiful but has all sorts of genetic-origin health problems and is mentally deficient in the brains department. It's such a shame.

I think having a club SOP will help folks cull the off-type birds (ie not as thrifty, Lack of production etc) since mother nature is no longer doing that and is actually a very good thing. But seeing what happens when you breed for looks over performance as with the Border Collie, I urge you to put in as much information as allowed about the 'other' stuff that makes this landrace breed special and be as broad as possible in the looks department.

 

[Herducks]

Their flexibility is unexpected and very good news!

A cautionary tale: I have a Border collie ( also a landrace breed) and for Forty years they were a miscellaneous class breed in AKC (APA equvalent) so they could shown without conformation. About 15 years ago AKC said all or nothing to the breeders so they now have the conformation and there are other clubs that continue on for performance only. I have had nonAKC and an AKC Border and will tell you that the AKC status is breeding the landrace out of the breed. The AKC dog I currently have is very beautiful but has all sorts of genetic-origin health problems and is mentally deficient in the brains department. It's such a shame.

I think having a club SOP will help folks cull the off-type birds (ie not as thrifty, Lack of production etc) since mother nature is no longer doing that and is actually a very good thing. But seeing what happens when you breed for looks over performance as with the Border Collie, I urge you to put in as much information as allowed about the 'other' stuff that makes this landrace breed special and be as broad as possible in the looks department.

While I appreciate what you are saying and agree that AKC really ruined a lot of breeds, border collies have always been selectively bred and are not really a landrace breed. They are bred for their working ability. They were bred to have a medium to short coat so they would not get caught up in brush. AKC changed the purpose of the breed which means there are now fluffy conformation dogs that have started to loose their herding ability, and working type dogs. I do agree any standard for the SFH needs to be very broad and allow for all the natural occuring variences in the breed.

 

[Bulldogma]

The amazing and wide color variation of this breed is part of what makes a SFH a SFH... and if jbarrett has any trouble getting past this bump in the road while getting recognition, I will be standing beside him in front of those folks to help broaden their views.

I am also working on finding the commonalities in the body shape of these birds so that they may be recognized for their naturally acquired shape. There are definite body shape similarities in pure SFH, and that is exactly what I plan to show in my illustrations of the breed. How would it be "bad" to show what the "average" SFH looks like? It would only be bad for a breeder that was crossing this breed with another and losing the natural shape of the breed.



While the color can throw the eye a bit, once we do this:


We can see that there is a common body shape, even between the 7 month old cockerel on the far left and the fully mature Soren (2nd from the left).

And when looking through the other breeds, I don't think I'm the only person that can see that the SFH is a different shape than most of those other breeds:




Combs vary in the number of points, but they are all single, serrated and red in color. We can agree, no?

The rest of this argument is semantics. We can go around and around all day about not changing the breed or trying to selectively breed for certain traits, but what about the other side - keeping this breed the way it is by determining what it is. Without this process, the breed has NO protections from unscrupulous breeders who pass off an Orpington x SFH as pure... and if there is no standard, (read: Average) new buyers will have no idea these birds aren't what they are supposed to be.

jbarrett is trying to protect this breed in its true form.

And just for the record, I do selectively breed away from split wing. Why? Because I have a free range flock - and they need to have the protection of all their flight feathers should they need to evade a predator. This is hard for a "purist" to disagree with as, if left to their own devices in nature, nature would cull these birds.

Just my $0.02

 

[PugBug]

I will post here... with reservations. People feel very strongly about this issue, as do I. First let me say that I don't think anyone who frequents this site continues to visit this site because they "can't stand those ugly speckled chickens. What can we do to change them and make them beautiful?" We ALL love them for what they are, as they are!

Now.... since we all agree, (hopefully), the question that we are asking is: What can we do to promote this beautiful breed that we all love?
I don't think anyone ever suggested that by working to get the Swedish Flower Hen recognized as a breed, that we were somehow attempting to deconstruct the breed, and create a new animal from it. I, for one, feel relatively certain that jb's interests (bravo! from me) are purely to create an avenue to better enable us to present this beautiful breed to the public. I think that the concept of these hard working viking chickens scratching out a successful living in the bare, deserted, hostile, Swedish wilderness until the first Darwinian ape evolved into a human, and screwed up everything in their lives is pretty silly! I am being sarcastic, but it is to make a point, not to try to offend anyone. Swedish Flower Hens were farm chickens. Meaning that they lived on farms...owned by farmers....and their wives....who were trying to make a living. They were cared for, fed, protected, and heaven forbid... chosen for particular traits that Mr, or Mrs, liked. And they survived.... "in spite of" ? Give me a break!

I have to say that I would be opposed to a "standard of perfection" that called for (choose your color) red/ blue /black background, with 17 white spots, 4 white flights, and 2 black tail feathers... once again sarcasm, but you get my point. A SOP can be as broad, or as narrow, as you make it. If one person decides... It will be narrow. The more folks involved the broader it will be, which brings us back to what jb has asked for ....input from us! Thanks jb..and good luck...you'll need it!

I never said JB had anything but the best intentions toward the breed. I've seen how much he cares for his birds and for the breed & do believe what he is trying to do could be a good thing. I was just adding MY input about the concerns of coming up with a 'breed standard'- as he asks all of us to do! Whatever does or does not come of his efforts will not effect me or my SFH's since I have no intentions of showing mine. They are purely for our enjoyment and so my husband can have a piece of his home here in Louisiana.

I am a bit offended by your sarcastic comment of what I said about the breed surviving 'in spite of' the conditions in Sweden. Unless you have personal knowledge of conditions in Sweden then I will just ignore your comment and consider the source.

JB I wish you luck in your endeavors. I do think that you will take all the opinions given here as well as your own and do the best you can with it!

I do want to say one more thing- I've met some very nice folks on BYC in numerous threads. I met JB in the Feb hatch along thread and he invited me here to this one as until then I didn't know it was here. I do try to follow along with the post here, and I've learned some interesting things, seen photos of the beautiful birds you all have posted- but I rarely add anything to the conversations because at times it seems to get a bit unfriendly. So I suppose I will just go back to my hatch along threads where everyone's opinion is welcome

 

[TNBEARCHICK]

Question about split wings in these chickens. How common is it and it is a genetic flaw correct? I have week old chicks that I hatched from eggs purchased from BYC member and out of 6 that hatched I have one that both wing feathers stick out and another that it looks like one side sticks out. Split wing is where there is a gap in the wing due to feathers not present. These birds should not be used to breed correct? Thanks for the help.

Since we don't have a standard yet it is all in someones opinion some countries don't disqualify for that but in this country we normally do.