Swedish Flower Hen Thread

[TxFlowers]

I'm not trying to be dense but that doesn't make sense to me. I'm just hung up on that 2nd sentence. Of course, it's late and I'm tired so I could be missing something. This is my thought process, please feel free to correct me or tell me how the crest genetic differs from color or feather legged genetics.

In my mind a crested x uncrested pair should net in all offspring carrying the crested gene even if it doesn't show.

I realize this analogy is off but it's kind of like the lavender black split birds, even though they might look black, when bred to a lavender, their genetics will show with more lavender offspring. I'm not a chicken geneticist so I am quite willing to stand corrected. It just doesn't make sense that a chick can NOT carry the parental genetics. I realize that only 50% of crested x non crested chicks will show the crest but 100% should carry the gene. Meaning that next generation of uncrested can still be bred together and 1 in 4 has a probable odds of showing a crest.

I'm told that it takes 7 generations to create a true genetic again so it would stand to reason that once the crested gene was bred into the SFH, it would take 7 generations of breeding only non-crested to get rid of the crested gene. So any time in 6 generations you could see a crest thrown from uncrested parents because the crest genetic was still there.

For example my very pure Wheaten Ameraucana with feathered legs. Sometime A LONG TIME AGO, Favarolles had been used to make the Wheaten color of Ameraucana. The parents of my feather legged pullet both had a hidden feather legged gene but neither showed it - even though feathering on the legs is a dominant gene. My pullet was the only one out of probably hundreds to show. But the genetic was there.

I love learning from discussion. I've some background in people science but people and chickens are nothing alike so the learning curve is big!

I say shouldn't because if it's truly a non crested bird, it will not have the crested gene. The gene for crested is dominant over non crested which is recessive which means the dominant gene is expressed in the physical type over the recessives which aren't visible in the bird's physical type ( phenotype). So if the crested gene is present in the bird, the bird SHOULD physically have a crest. I said "should" because some crests may be harder to recognize because they are smaller and might look like just a few "stray" feathers around the comb especially on a bigger combed roo but what I am saying might be confusing you. Basically just go with this... A bird that has even one copy of the crested gene will have a crest while a bird that doesn't have the crested gene, will not have a crest. I hope that clears up what I was saying.

In my mind a crested x uncrested pair should net in all offspring carrying the crested gene even if it doesn't show. No, this isn't the case. Remember both parents contribute to each offspring and each parent carries two copies of each gene and each chick gets one or the other copy by random chance. First, The uncrested parent has no part in the the chick having a crest. That parent will ALWAYS pass down only a non crested copy of the gene. To get a crest AND be a "carrier" of the crested gene, a chick only needs one copy which need only come from one parent. The crested parent is the factor on crest ( crested carrier ) or not in your scenario. If crested parent has only one copy of the crested gene, the crested gene will be passed down to a chick 50% of the time while the other half of the chicks will get the non crested copy. So theoretically half of chicks will be crested and be "carriers" while rest will not be carriers. If crested parent has two copies of the crested gene, it can only pass crested genes and only then will every chick will get a crested gene and end up with a crest. So in this case, every chick will be a "carrier" of the crested trait. Remember, if the chick doesn't have a crest, it didn't get the crested gene so doesn't "carry" the crested gene.

I realize that only 50% of crested x non crested chicks will show the crest but 100% should carry the gene. Like I was saying, the crested gene is dominant so if it's present IT WILL show in the chick. If the chick doesn't have a crest it doesn't carry the gene. You are thinking more in terms of recessives genes where the traits can be carried in the offspring without being visible outwardly. Crested trait being dominant doesn't work same way. And back to the scenario where the crested parent that was used had only one copy of the crested gene, there is a non crested gene there too for that bird to pass on as well. Based on random chance, the chick will get one copy or the other. If the chick gets the non crested copy, that's all it gets from that crested parent and it can only get a non crested gene from the non crested parent so the chick will not have the crested gene. BUT if the crested parent had two copies of the crested gene, it can ONLY pass a crested gene so ALL it's offspring will get one crest gene and one non crested gene and all chicks will have a crest and all chicks will both carry and express outwardly the crested gene.

 

[Gonetothebirds]

should they be a strong solid yellow? Hers are light yellow and black.

Yes. I have had chicks start with a little dark color on there legs but they out grow it. But it's her body type that really doesn't seem incorrect. The molted color seems off also. I can't get the pic and bigger on this iPhone, what's her comb type? I would not use her because she is of unknow breeding also....

 

[shelbydog]

Yes. I have had chicks start with a little dark color on there legs but they out grow it. But it's her body type that really doesn't seem incorrect. The molted color seems off also. I can't get the pic and bigger on this iPhone, what's her comb type? I would not use her because she is of unknow breeding also....

single comb. I still like her even if she's not a SFH. It's all good.

 

[KYTinpusher]

I bought this hen at an auction. Her cage tag said SFH but the auctioneer just sold her off as a regular ol' hen. Is she SFH or Heinz57? I like her whatever she is.
she's the spotted/mottled one on the left. She does have gold in her hackles.

She looks like an older SFH to me. The older mine get, the more white they get in their mottling. The all white tail is different, but I think I have seen others like that. Many of the black based birds have some black mottling on their legs, so that doesn't disqualify her. With that all said, I wouldn't use her for breeding either since you don't know if there is anything else hiding in her genes.

She is a beautiful bird!

 

[shelbydog]

She looks like an older SFH to me. The older mine get, the more white they get in their mottling. The all white tail is different, but I think I have seen others like that. Many of the black based birds have some black mottling on their legs, so that doesn't disqualify her. With that all said, I wouldn't use her for breeding either since you don't know if there is anything else hiding in her genes.

She is a beautiful bird!

I don't have a breeding program. I run a mixed flock. Any chicks I hatch will be barnyard specials anyways. Thank you for the compliment.

 

[ki4got]

Quote:
the crested gene is dominant... so if they carry it, they HAVE to be crested. that's why breeding crested to crested is the issue(homozygous crested chicks), if it were recessive, they'd HAVE to have 2 copies of the gene to display the trait.

 

[CackleJoy]

I say shouldn't because if it's truly a non crested bird, it will not have the crested gene. The gene for crested is dominant over non crested which is recessive which means the dominant gene is expressed in the physical type over the recessives which aren't visible in the bird's physical type ( phenotype). So if the crested gene is present in the bird, the bird SHOULD physically have a crest. I said "should" because some crests may be harder to recognize because they are smaller and might look like just a few "stray" feathers around the comb especially on a bigger combed roo but what I am saying might be confusing you. Basically just go with this... A bird that has even one copy of the crested gene will have a crest while a bird that doesn't have the crested gene, will not have a crest. I hope that clears up what I was saying.

In my mind a crested x uncrested pair should net in all offspring carrying the crested gene even if it doesn't show. No, this isn't the case. Remember both parents contribute to each offspring and each parent carries two copies of each gene and each chick gets one or the other copy by random chance. First, The uncrested parent has no part in the the chick having a crest. That parent will ALWAYS pass down only a non crested copy of the gene. To get a crest AND be a "carrier" of the crested gene, a chick only needs one copy which need only come from one parent. The crested parent is the factor on crest ( crested carrier ) or not in your scenario. If crested parent has only one copy of the crested gene, the crested gene will be passed down to a chick 50% of the time while the other half of the chicks will get the non crested copy. So theoretically half of chicks will be crested and be "carriers" while rest will not be carriers. If crested parent has two copies of the crested gene, it can only pass crested genes and only then will every chick will get a crested gene and end up with a crest. So in this case, every chick will be a "carrier" of the crested trait. Remember, if the chick doesn't have a crest, it didn't get the crested gene so doesn't "carry" the crested gene.

I realize that only 50% of crested x non crested chicks will show the crest but 100% should carry the gene. Like I was saying, the crested gene is dominant so if it's present IT WILL show in the chick. If the chick doesn't have a crest it doesn't carry the gene. You are thinking more in terms of recessives genes where the traits can be carried in the offspring without being visible outwardly. Crested trait being dominant doesn't work same way. And back to the scenario where the crested parent that was used had only one copy of the crested gene, there is a non crested gene there too for that bird to pass on as well. Based on random chance, the chick will get one copy or the other. If the chick gets the non crested copy, that's all it gets from that crested parent and it can only get a non crested gene from the non crested parent so the chick will not have the crested gene. BUT if the crested parent had two copies of the crested gene, it can ONLY pass a crested gene so ALL it's offspring will get one crest gene and one non crested gene and all chicks will have a crest and all chicks will both carry and express outwardly the crested gene.

Thank you for taking the time to educate me! A couple aha! moments here - I forgot that each parent carries two copies of each gene. There is a lot about chicken genetics that I'm struggling to get. And I am not a dumb person - I don't know why but every time I get in front of a genetics chart my eyes glaze over and my brain kind of goes on tornado alert.

I've considered taking the local poultry science class but I have 4 children and am on a school sabbatical until I go back and finish getting my midwife degree.

Thanks again! I'm going to make a file and start saving this information so that I can refer to it.

MOST HELPFUL

 

[CackleJoy]

the crested gene is dominant... so if they carry it, they HAVE to be crested. that's why breeding crested to crested is the issue(homozygous crested chicks), if it were recessive, they'd HAVE to have 2 copies of the gene to display the trait.

Not to beat a dead horse - really. But are all crested genetics the same? I have CLB and Brabanters as well. I've been offered uncrested CLB and refused. Since all of mine are crested, it is not possible to throw an uncrested, right? An uncrested CLB has got to be some sort of fluke. I've never heard of an uncrested BBR - so they must not have that problem.

Thank you all for your time!

 

[TxFlowers]

Well when I was in school, every time I got into math class I had that same kind of reaction! Now, put me in microbiology and genetics classes.... I was good!!

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Not to beat a dead horse - really. But are all crested genetics the same? I have CLB and Brabanters as well. I've been offered uncrested CLB and refused. Since all of mine are crested, it is not possible to throw an uncrested, right? An uncrested CLB has got to be some sort of fluke. I've never heard of an uncrested BBR - so they must not have that problem.

Thank you all for your time!

Cream Legbars have been bred with crests for many years. They do not have this same problem. There are those who will try to tell you that you need uncrested Cream Legbars to breed to crested but it is just not true. I have been breeding CLs for 2 years, breeding true with NO problems with crested X crested. Same thing with all the other breeders I have talked to, including breeders in the UK where the US Cream Legbar was sourced. Just as you don't need uncrested Polish or uncrested Silkies to breed correct crest, Cream Legbars have been bred with crests long enough their genetics have adapted to it.

The problem with SFH is that the US stock had uncrested birds first, then brought over crested stock to add to it and that is causing problems because the uncrested flocks are having trouble adapting to the genetics so suddenly. At least that is my understanding.