swollen water filled darkened waddles! swollen face!

[dlhunicorn]

Baytril has been banned in the US for poultry since 2005. There is no withdrawal time for egg producing hens because the drug can't be used in them. I haven't done a search, but if your sources say otherwise, they are out of date

"Out of date" has nothing to do with it. As I stated before Baytril (enrofloxacin) is not banned in other countries (food-producing animals) and therefore information concerning withdrawal times is known and available... It is approved and used (off label under veterinary supervision) in the USA for non-food producing animals and pets off label under veterinary supervision. Talk to a zoo vet who has rare game fowl under there supervision.​

 

[Kimiko]

We aren't discussing game fowl in a zoo or non-food producing animals or pets. We aren't discussing poultry in Europe or Africa or Asia.

We were discussing use of Baytril (we can extend it to all fluoroquinolones if you like) in egg-laying hens in the United States and that is the ONLY thing we were discussing to my knowledge as evidenced by my quote you so kindly highlighted. In the US the withdrawal period is lifetime because the drug is not approved for use in this animal by the FDA. If you use Baytril in your hen and sell the eggs in the United States, you are in violation of the law in this country for that animal.

Am I missing the point of your contention?

FINAL DECISION OF THE COMMISSIONER
Docket No. 2000N-1571
WITHDRAWAL OF APPROVAL OF THE NEW ANIMAL DRUG APPLICATION FOR ENROFLOXACIN IN POULTRY

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
U.S. Food and Drug Administration

V. CONCLUSIONS AND ORDER

[edited]
11. Enrofloxacin has not been shown to be safe for use in poultry under the conditions of use upon the basis of which the application was approved within the meaning of § 512(e)(1)(B) of the FDCA.
The foregoing opinion in its entirety constitutes my findings of fact and conclusions of law. Based on the foregoing discussion, findings, and conclusions, I affirm the ALJ's Initial Decision as corrected and supplemented by this Final Decision.

Therefore, I ORDER that the approval of the NADA for enrofloxacin listed in this document, NADA 140-828, be hereby withdrawn pursuant to § 512(e)(1)(B) of the FDCA. This order is effective on September 12, 2005.

In addition, pursuant to § 512(i), I order the removal from 21 CFR § 520.813. I also order deletions of all references to enrofloxacin for use in poultry contained in 21 CFR § 556.228.

A notice will be published promptly in the Federal Register revoking these rules.



Signed this 27th day of July, 2005.​

 

[dlhunicorn]

We aren't discussing game fowl in a zoo or non-food producing animals or pets. We aren't discussing poultry in Europe or Africa or Asia.

Members of this forum are not all eating their birds... many are pets... many have rare game fowl or fowl species not suitable for food (guineas and fancy fowl such as seramas for instance)... and many live in europe australia the UK (and yes we even have members in china and japan).. . and most here who do eat their birds have a few that are truly pets and therefore non-food producing animals. Many live in rural areas where a vet (much less an avian vet) are literally non-existant (DVM magazine had a big article on this problem in rural areas in 2007 I believe )
so yes we do share info with each other and in general are very responsible in ensuring its accuracy (veterinary or poultry science source).​

 

[Kimiko]

I was addressing someone in the US originally.

The highlighted quote you display clearly says "US" and "egg producing hens".

A simple: "in other parts of the world the withdrawal is..." would perhaps have been clearer and directly helpful. Until this last post I wasn't even sure what the issue was since, for the US, the statement was correct.

 

[redhen]

all i know is..and MANY will say the same here!....dlhunicorn REALLY knows her stuff!...she has helped many,many members here!...i will always trust her...Thanks for all the help you give us Diana!

 

[dlhunicorn]

You are very kind but I am not a vet and only through the wonderful gift of sharing information through the internet whereby we have access to solid veterinary information can we even attempt to help our birds in a responsible manner... no substitute for a poultry/avian veterinary specialist but it is better than the nothingness many would otherwise be faced with. Lets face it ... until people (including veterinarians) are willing to accept the fact that chickens ARE pets and stop refusing to see them then we will simply have to struggle through the best we know how

 

[redhen]

Quote:
i know you are not a vet..but, you have saved MANY a hens life on here, my friend!

 

[nnbreeder]

Kimiko do you know the reason Baytril was withdrawn?

It was because the same type of drugs were used in humans and there were strains of bacteria that were getting immune to it. Not because of residues in the meat or eggs that could be harmful.

http://www.mindfully.org/Farm/2005/Baytril-Antibiotic-Banned29jul05.htm

And here is a story of a study done by the University of Georgia that basically says that the damage has been done. Banning antibiotics will not help.

http://www.feedstuffs.com/ME2/dirmo...F4&tier=4&id=568C4A34EE0447B88460F2E052E932AE

The main reason that this has happened in the first place is because the big producer has used antibiotics for years as a growth agent. The drugs are constantly given to the animals at a low level to promote growth.

There is a drug on the market specifically for Mycoplasmal infections in chickens and a couple of nasty swine diseases that is unrelated to any human drugs. It is Tiamulin and is available overseas in an injectable form but here it is only approved for swine and as a feed additive to promote growth.

http://www.bioagrimix.com/haccp/html/tiamulin.htm

http://www.octagon-services.co.uk/articles/poultry/mycoplasma.htm

 

[Kimiko]

1) I know why Baytril was withdrawn and I have cited the actual FDA documents. I never claimed there were harmful residues in meat or eggs. I simply stated that in the UNITED STATES it was a banned drug in EGG PRODUCING HENS. It is. End of story. Whether you agree with the science or not, it is the law. If you sell your eggs and have given your hens baytril, you are in violation. What you choose to do with that information is up to you--I just wanted to make sure people were aware the laws had changed. It's called informed consent, people. I'm not sure why this concept has been so completely misunderstood.

2) I have no idea why Tiamulin is getting introduced into this discussion. It works against M gallisepticum and M synoviae (if used with CTC). To my knowledge studies have not been performed to see if administration protects against infectious challenge. The big problem with any Mycoplasma is that while you can knock down the numbers of organism, it rarely goes away completely. In one study it had comparable MIC with doxycycline and tylosin--neither of which "cures" the bird.

3) We have effectively hijacked this thread from the poor chicken who was ill--perhaps we should move antibiotic discussions to another thread?

4) In re: veterinarians-from the flip side, most vet schools don't offer comprehensive avian programs let alone poultry based programs. There might be 1-2 weeks of rotation. In the clinic setting, birds require special equipment (humidifiers, incubators, perches, heaters etc) and medications. For poultry you have to keep track of withdrawal times and banned drugs--however much y'all might want to ignore them. There's also a money issue. Vet's have to pay rent and supplies and staff and overhead. Many poultry owners aren't willing to spend money on exams and fecals and tests and surgery ($300 and up). You can't pay for the equipment if you don't use it.

5) The internet is a blessing and a curse. There is a lot of misinformation or incomplete information or out of date information that gets passed around as gospel. (I keep getting a dog/cat vaccine e-mail that's been circulating for almost a decade. It talks about new vaccines on the horizon. Many of those vaccines have come and been pulled from the market or deemed non-core for years). When someone brings you new information you can take or leave it, but this dialog here isn't constructive or conducive to helping anyone or encouraging new people with information to share.

5) Are you guys always this tough on the newbies? I feel like I've been running defensive action since my 2nd post. I'm trying (unsuccessfully apparently) to help. While people in Europe or who work in zoos can ignore my baytril comments, there may also be some who do sell their eggs and aren't aware of the law change. I'm not sure it's fair to flatten me on the one hand for ignoring, (even though I wasn't), those who have pet birds and don't consume eggs and live outside the US while on the other hand ignoring those who DO sell their eggs in the US and need to know that information.

 

[redhen]

Quote:
i am sorry that you feel this way...