Tatanka Breeders Club: Meat Quail project with history, discussion, pictures and videos

[yinepu]

Why would you want a bird that big???? The eat more, they poop more. Just dont make sense does it....

Wait a minute.....











Maybe a really big bird would be a nice change.....

 

[Bigdtc]

Just read through this thread.. Bravo Moby and forum members for keeping it rolling. Hopefully I will be joining in the fun soon.. Well done!

 

[MobyQuail]

thanks Big! glad someone reads my dribble.

this is something often asked in any new breeders first few daydream sessions, how do I get my own line? here is a good read. Ive read it many times.

and ya know, rats and quail do almost seem to occupy a similar niche about same size, gestation periods, etc...

here is a good read. Ive read it many times. http://ratguide.com/breeding/breeding/breeding_methods.php

Breeding Methods

​

As a hobby breeder, breeding rats to involves a combination of breeding methods.
Starting with high quality rats and using inbreeding, line breeding and occasional outcrosses will help a breeder to reach the goal of improvement in the line.

Bettering the breed should encompass several factors: health, temperament, and conformation. The three methods used to selectively breed towards this goal are inbreeding, line breeding, and outcrossing.

Tracking the offspring and future generations of any line (or outcross) provides essential data.

Definition of a Line

A line is defined in the Merriam-Webster dictionary as:
1: Family, lineage
2: a strain produced and maintained especially by selective breeding.
A line does not happen over night, it can take years and involves multiple inbred and line bred generations.
The persistent breeding of unrelated animals does not designate a line.
It seems a common practice in some parts of the fancy to outcross repeatedly (generation after generation) without testing for health issues, and without stopping to evaluate the rats, without attempting to set desirable traits, etc. This practice does not meet the definition of having a line(s) and should not be referred to as such.

Outcrossing can be used to strengthen or add a trait to a line, but it is the inbreeding of those offspring back to the foundation line that helps it to remain true to the original definition of a line.

Animals outcrossed whose offspring are bred to the outcrossed animals would become a related or sub line, but would denote a new line or “branch.”

Line Breeding

Line breeding is a term that breeders use to denote a family of inbred rats that begins with a single or pair of foundation rats. Rat’s within a line will have the same (or closely) lineage.
Lineage is defined by Merriam-Webster as:
1 a: descent in a line from a common progenitor
2: a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor ; especially : such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder
Line breeding is accomplished by tightly inbreeding as well as by breeding rats that are less closely related (aunt/nephew, uncle/niece, cousin/cousin, grandparents/grandchildren).
Linebreeding is used to set certain traits as well as to eliminate negative ones, therefore it is important not to breed two animals together that have the same fault.
One must also not breed related rats together just because of the pedigree, not all the rats from each litter are the same genetically.
Considering health traits, temperament, and physical features will enable a breeder to choose the correct rats for each other, not just because they are related or because of sentimental attachment.

Inbreeding

Inbreeding is defined by Merriam-Webster as:
1: the interbreeding of closely related individuals especially to preserve and fix desirable characters of and to eliminate unfavorable characters from a stock
Inbreeding is used extensively in the breeding of many species and can be used either to set a positive trait or identify a potentially negative trait depending upon the choices made.
When two unknown rats, or even rats from different known lines, are brought together for a breeding the offspring may all appear to be robust and free of any unwanted genetic issues.
Test breeding the siblings and/or breeding an offspring back to the parent can help to identify undesirable traits by doubling up on the reccesives of the two different parents.
It is said, by some, that test breeding can create offspring with genetic issues. This is true at times, and yet it is important that this be done so that the health and viability of the new line can be evaluated and possibly discontinued if there are problems.
Without multiple close test breeding negative recessive traits are swept under the rug and may be perpetuated indefinitely only to resurface later in a much larger gene pool.

Inbreeding Tolerance

Different species have different degrees of inbreeding tolerance. And there are situations, such as when dealing with endangered species, where close inbreeding can be disastrous.
In some mammal populations a high inbreeding coefficient can lead to inbreeding depression. And, it is not always about the accumulation of ?bad? traits. It is possible for the natural percentage of certain ?lethal? genes that each organism carries with no adverse effects to accumulate and cause problems such as immune deficiencies and fertility issues.
With rats, the safe inbreeding quotient is quite high. In laboratories a line is not even considered inbreed until the 20th generation. Inbred lab strains are often achieved by breeding brother to sister in each generation. It is important, in research, to use healthy animals that are as genetically similar as possible so that test results show consistent data.

Outcrossing

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines outcross as:
noun:
1: a cross between relatively unrelated individuals 2: the progeny of an outcross
transitive verb:
1: to cross with a relatively unrelated individual or strain
Outcrossing is done to introduce new traits that are missing from a line. Dominate genes, such as rex, will exhibit in the first generation.
Recessive genes such as dumbo ear or a color dilution will typically show in the second generation if the offspring from the outcross (who now carry but do not exhibit the trait) are breed back to the parent used as an outcross (who exhibits the trait and is therefore homozygous for the trait) or if the siblings are bred together.

Type & Outcrossing

Altering color
The coat color of a rat can be altered by breeding it to a rat of a different color and then back breeding to the outcrossed parent.
Breeding to a rat with an eye dilution can also change the color in a line. On the other hand, strengthening a color can be achieved by breeding to rats carrying less dilutions.
Modifying Physical Structure
Outcrossing can be a used as a tool to improve eyes or ears (shape, placement, or size). It can also be used in hopes of improving the size, shape, and/or length of the body, the head, or the tail.
Adding or Modifying Patterns or Markings
Breeding to marked or patterned rats can enable you to add or improve the trait in your line.
Temperament and Outcrossing
Little is known on how well temperament can be improved by outcrossing. And it can sometimes be difficult to determine if temperament issues are environmental or genetic. Generally the safest action is to avoid breeding any animal with a poor temperament, particularly if the rat shows aggression.
Health Issues & Outcrossing
Outcrossing can be used to improve vigor in a line that has been inbred or linebred for many generations if the litters appear to become consistently smaller or the pups no longer have the strong health (vigor) or size that is normally seen in that line.
It can also be done in an effort to “breed out” a particular medical trait, such as a tendency toward tumors, diabetes, or in a line exhibiting a genetic defect such as megacolon. Considering that a great many of these issues are rooted in genetics, breeding an outcross does not always eliminate a problem. It can mask it and perpetuate the issue.
Outcrossing may eliminate a health issue over time if the correct animals are chosen for breeding: the ones that somehow did not get the recessive(s) as well as outcrossed rats that also aren’t carrying the problematic gene.
All too often, outcrossing to get rid of a problem just hides the recessives enabling the negative trait to show up later in the line (and in other lines as the rats are outcrossed more).
A good example of well meaning, but not necessarily well thought out, “avoidance” outcrossing involves the breeding of hairless lines that have lactation issues. Breeding to haired females who carry hairless will ensure that the offspring between them and the hairless sire will be fed. Unfortunately, there is a good chance that many of the offspring will still carry the genes that contribute to lack of lactation.
Some issues are connected to certain traits, as is the case in “high white rats” who are associated with aganglionic megacolon. Breeding away from the trait can only be accomplished by breeding away from the markings.

Hobby Breeder Considerations- Outcrossing

When doing an outcross, think very carefully about which animal to bring in, consider the reason why you are choosing to bring this particular rat in and if the rat will complement the rats you are working with.
You want to improve those few traits with the outcross, but you do not want to ruin the work you have already done. With each positive trait the new rat also will be bringing in every problem and weakness from its own line and adding it to yours.

Hints

• Know the history of the outcross (health, temperament, and genetic)
• Have a goal in mind when choosing an outcross.
• Breed only to a few rats from your existing line(s).
• Test breed after an outcross for negative issues by inbreeding siblings or back breeding to parents
• Track the offspring placed with other breeders or owners
• Let the offspring mature as long as possible before breeding to give yourself more time to evaluate health and temperament
• Wait to breed the outcrossed rats back into your original line particularly if the outcross has a little known or unknown history.

Considering the potential that each outcross could bring in many problems over the next several generations that it may not be worth it to take the chance ruining your years of work.
It is wise to maintain a portion of the line separate from outcrosses to ensure the perpetuation of the healthy line in the event an outcross has negative results.
You do not want to bring in something that is going to give you a whole new problem to “breed out.”

Strain

A strain is a variation of a particular species that possesses minor differences in its characteristics (physiological or chemical) though still remain distinguishable.
A strain requires homozygosity through close inbreeding methods such as brother/sister mating or by back crossing offspring with parents.
Homozygosity is the presence of the same alleles at one or more loci, it is “genetic sameness.”
The word strain comes from the Middle English word streen: meaning progeny, lineage, as well as from the Old English streon: meaning gain, acquisition.
Merriam-Webster dictionary defines strain as:
1 b: a group of presumed common ancestry with clear-cut physiological but usually not morphological (structural) distinctions
2 a: inherited or inherent character, quality, or disposition
Strains in the laboratory can include: inbred, outcrossed, and sub strains. In the lab it takes 20 generations of inbreeding to produce a strain that will be 95% genetically similar. With 40 inbred generations the percentage reaches 99.5%
Origin and Use
Origin
Rats were first used in Europe for nutritional studies as early as 1850. As time passed rats were kept in labs and used for other testing.
The specific inbreeding of rats was primarily achieved in America. The oldest known strains of inbred rats were started by Helen Dean King in 1909 at the Wistar institute in Pennsylvannia. She had two lines of albino rats, one of which became known as the King Albino (Later named the PA strain).
By 1920 she had reached the 135th generation of inbreeding the PA line.
King also started an inbred strain from wild Norway rats that she caught locally. When it reached generation 35 it was designated the BN (Brown Norway) strain.
Another scientist at Wistar, Margaret Dean Lewis, was the initiator of the LEW (Lewis) strain which reached its 8th generation in 1956.
These strains were the origination either in part/or in whole of many of the modern day rat strains. The direct descendants of the Wistar strains are still in use today.
Use
The fact that the rat’s physiology as well as its short life span have made it the lab animal most responsible for advances in medicine. Having such closely related strains in the laboratory is important to providing consistent data to researchers. It provide lines of rats with no apparent health or disease issues as well as rats with specific genetic issues.
The rats with no apparent genetic issues help the researchers more about such things as pathogenic disease, neurological injuries, toxicology, behavior, and pharmacology.
Rats with specific genetic issues are used by comparative medicine researchers to learn more about disease process and genetic disorders, behavior, treatment of diseases, causes of disorders, and pharmacology.
Comparative medicine research involving rats, although hard for rat lovers to sometimes deal with, has enabled medical doctors to learn more about the treatment and prevention of many things that people suffer from such as cancer, diabetes, birth defects, and many others.
References

• Suckow, M., Weisbroth, S., & Franklin, C. (2005). The Laboratory Rat, Second Edition (American College of Laboratory Animal Medicine). Toronto: Academic Press.

 

[MobyQuail]

and since so much work has been done with Rats in breeding for specific traits we could glean from some of this stuff...

http://emice.nci.nih.gov/animal-husbandry/rats/breeding-rats



For some researcher’s purposes, the purchase of the appropriate strain of rat from a reputable supplier will be sufficient for the work that needs to be accomplished. This includes both inbred strains and outbred stocks. For other experimental protocols, founder stocks may be acquired from suppliers or other researchers, and these founders will be used to generate local supplies of the animals. Further cross-breeding or other manipulations may also be performed, and those stocks may also need to be maintained and propagated appropriately. Before performing your own breeding, you may want to explore the existence of suitable strains to see if they meet your needs. Check out the Acquiring Rat Cancer Models section for existing models. A particularly useful resource for researchers seeking rat cancer models and links to related information may be the Cancer Portal at the Rat Genome Database (RGD).

Simple breeding schemes
Assuming the researcher wants to work with a genetically homogeneous population of animals for their research, the simplest strategy is to work with an inbred rat line. Inbred lines are generated by a founder pair of parental rats, with subsequent matings of the offspring siblings, for a total of 20 generations. Many inbred strains are available and in active use.
Keep in mind, though, that it may be wise to survey the genomes of the inbred animals periodically. Unanticipated changes may arise over time and can be propagated through the stocks. This can include active transposition activities, or by other variations such as copy-number changes.

Complex breeding schemes
A variety of breeding plans are employed to obtain the appropriate genetic composition of research rats. This can involve tracking single genes or genomic regions, or involve complex multi-allelic crosses that combine multiple genes or regions of interest. Sometimes this is to create a standardized background with desired characteristics or susceptibilities. Sometimes to isolate or combine desired traits. Sometimes researchers will want to compare traits or responses between strains. These schemes may involved naturally-occurring strains and lines, or may involve transgenic rats. The goals of the experiment will determine the particular breeding strategy required.
Backcrossing to parental strains is one mechanism. Intercrossing with different inbred strains may be desired, and this can lead to the generation of new recombinant inbred lines if propagated for 20 more generations. Randomized matings among multiple inbred strains for heterogeneous stocks may also be performed. Isolation of a specific chromosome (called consomic breeding) or genomic segment (congenic breeding) to create certain lines by backcrossing to inbred lines have been successful. Genotyping and characterizing the strains will be crucial to researcher’s understanding of the outcomes. For more details on characterizing rat strains examine the Characterizing Models section.
At the level of an individual gene or multiple genes desired in a certain context, the possibilities are nearly limitless. One can imagine scenarios that require multiple transgenes, or combinations of a transgene and a knockout, conditional expression strategies, or cases where adjacent genes on the same chromosome need to be segregated. This will require a study of the possibilities, and a detailed scheme to obtain the outcome. Offspring would need to be carefully examined, and researchers should be aware that some combinations could prove particularly challenging to develop if embryonic lethality becomes an issue.
The strategy to generate and maintain the appropriate strain depends on the goals of the research. In any case, accurate record keeping is crucial. For more details on record-keeping strategies, explore the rat husbandry section.

 

[MobyQuail]

and here is or test breedings of our "splits"

here are some of the chicks from the 4 settings of ~24+ eggs from same two parents. almost time to weigh the second brood.

 

[MobyQuail]

and here are some of the white wingtips that rarely show up.

 

[MobyQuail]

F1 splits, the poor bald hen is the gene donor to the broods above, hence why she is bald after being with the roo for weeks.
I like the looks of the cockbird.

 

[MobyQuail]

"Splits" what the sam heck are they now?

we have pure jumbo brown birds and we have jumbo white birds, we crossed them.

we took the largest 3 brown hens (Br/Br) with largest white roo and we took the largest 3 white hens (wh/wh) and crossed with largest brown roo.

first of all these parent birds are very genetically different, from flocks over 1200 miles apart that had never met. this was our white outcross to the tatankas.

what we ended up with was a bunch of visually brown birds that carried a recessive white gene (Br/wh) the "Splits"

then we crossed our largest F1 Br/wh together, this is where it gets interesting. yes, we did this to get larger white birds.


Br wh

Br Br/Br Br/wh
wh Br/wh wh/wh

you end up with ~ 25% pure brown, ~25% white and 50% that are splits again.

only problem here is you cant tell your browns from your splits, they are both brown and from this cross in order to keep your numbers working right you should really only keep the whites from this group in your breeding program and maybe move them into the white project.

example, if you got a Br/Br back in your Split pen its gonna throw off your %s and if you get a Br/wh bird back in with your brown lines you may throw white birds down the line if you end up visually mistaking a "Split" roo as your "Brown" roo.

If you are breeding for meat and not color, well all the better really, gets a little easier, you can keep the biggest birds whether brown or white.

I like the splits so far, Its kinda cool to breed two brown birds together and end up with a white bird...

and please remember all this is my humble opinion.

 

[MobyQuail]

got a few emails and pms, please, the "tatankas" are not "for sale". this is not a commercial endeavor, its a project.

Mille posted his link and if you are in the northeast shoot him a PM or an email.

we are working hard to improve breeding coveys and I need all the eggs I can hatch for a little while longer.

Fatdaddy is working on his F5 brown tatankas
I'm thinking Mille has F3 and F4 brown tatankas.

I have 4- F2 brown tatankas and 6- F4 brown tatankas to cross and carry on the brown lines down here.
I have 4 splits that measure up to standard.

there are several others and hopefully they will chime in when ready.

I am already promised out for the next two moon hatches, to bfrancis and yinepu, and I have my eye on 1 or 2 others for the "tatanka" freebies, I like the way they document their projects.

thanks for the interest, its humbling, TD

 

[kahlertm]

Rocky Mountain Division reporting in:
Selling the jumbo egg from the Tatanka line is all my customers expect now. If I slip in a small egg from the other lines, it just looks bad. These eggs as you can see FILL the carton space. NOW, I sell mine at $6. I will be bumping up the price for the GMO free.

I have such incredible demand for these large eggs that it has reached all the way to Northern Colorado and out to Montana now. I have a mother of twin baby boys who need an alternative egg for food reaction reasons. She was hopelessly seeking out different eggs and having a hard time...So now ...I have to provide 12 doz every three weeks to 3 natral food stores, 100 per week to a Sushi Establishment. 12 doz every three weeks to Boulder Co and 10 or 12 doz every three weeks to Monanta.

Momma Montana was near tears when she told me there was NO ONE in the WEST providing a quaility large organic/ or even just regular Quail egg. These eggs are big enough, that a family, literally relying on them as the only digestable type of protein they can consume, make the $5 or $6. spent, worth it... The larger egg can feed a little one with less eggs used. It used to take 5 quail eggs to equal the Chicken egg.

Moby...help me here. The eggs we are producing out of these girls...they lessen the need of quail eggs to fulfil that measurment equaling a chicken egg. Even if it were only by one egg.. that is still saving the consumer by offering a quality egg of a type of proetein that they CAN eat.


Anyway...you can see what my delivery needs are...Well a long time 4-H friend has been watching my progress. We had talked long prior to meeting up with and joining in with the Tatanka. We saw the niche. He is watching the shelves...He approached me in the last month and told me that they are gone in the first week I place them...then the customers are waiting. So I have to up this production....Get them out faster...So now I have a quail freind and we friend going to fully service our area with this huge laid back bird.
What I like about them as a different perspective than say the meat quality (and forgive me Moby...but I sell eggs using the Tatanka..they are too big not to sell to these families who need them..they are PERFECT for the family who have reactive (egg allergic) children. It isn't a rip off to sell this SIZE of an egg to these families who need it. So here are some of the benefits the Rocky Mountain division sees in the Tatanka and why I choose to keep my clean line running and expanding:
1. They don't fight and scalp eachother!!!!
2. They don't jump up and bonk and die just cause I feed them.
3. When they are this calm, they handle shifting from cage to cage or different locations with literally no disruption in their behavior or outward observable stress levels.
4. Food conversion...I get more egg for my money in feed. Yes they mature out fast and big and require some feed...but the SIZE OF EGG I am able to provide my consumer has set a new standard. PERIOD.

My covey is now tripled in size. I did not have any other successful hatches other than the Tatanka over the winter. I tried. I bought other sources with no luck and hatched side by side some of the pay it forward Tatanka. Tatanka hatched. So now the Slowsprings Quail house of the Rocky Mountain Division is tripled utilizing Tatanka through survival of the fitest, and will be doubling that size with my parner who saw me struggling to fulfill the consumer demand in only one city in a multi city County. On that note.....

The west has yet to be touched. When you have a Montana mom calling me (in SW Colorado) after seeing these eggs in the natural food store while visiting here...and stating she can find them no where in the Rocky West....The Rocky Mountain West is prime territory... A vast (forgive me but it's true) frontier for these Tatanka... Now I have a restaurant (high quality) wanting them after offering a 30 pack like Moby pictured....Easter special salad, into summer... and eventually meat for her Christmas special. I am sorry to brag but these eggs are the talk of the town and nice restaurants are contacting me. Thank you friend (you know who you are you awesome man...he's here) for coming forward to help me build more infrastructure, deliver, produce....
You can too you know. I have contributed a sticky to help you get started selling the eggs.."a sample plan" if you will...

Thank you for putting out the work Moby. I wanted to report in. I have been busy keeping orders filled (near impossible) and hatching more and more.
So easy to handle these birds...what a relief...particularly in the Quail world....a docile huge Coturnix Quail...unheard of till now. I love it. Now that I have a partner...We are gonna love it even more.
I had been using a cage with flooring not designed for Quail (you know the bars across the floor parakeet cage....changed that!!!). My friend...much more experienced in all Poultry pointed out to me how to keep the birds more comfortable...and fit, building more muscle through movement and developing tone. Much like you would do with a Beef sSteer or Market Lamb. One simple adjustment fixed it and these Tatanka are flourishing BIG, with BIG EGGS.

Moby, I hope you don't mind I checked in to report on the Rocky Mtn Division. and what we are seeing...developing...We are going places with these giants... Thank you Fat Daddy, Moby, and ultimately Buttercup for keeping the line alive and futher improving upon it with documentation, scienced based research and citation. It was much needed and we are on our way.. Incredible and I feel so fortunate to be part of the "movement of improvement"..

Thanks again.
Tonya