Tell me about your internal layers

[Erica]

Quote:
Not necessarily — genetic sensitivity to a feed toxin may be in only those hatchery birds, but on a different diet they might be fine. This matters if the toxin causes sporadic problems in a wider subset of birds (in which case the hatchery birds might be acting like coalmine canaries). It maybe seems like splitting hairs but there would be implications down the track for whichever paradigm you use (i.e. 'it's all genetic' vs 'it's partly genetic but there may be unexplained toxin interactions that might matter for future breeding/feeding').

Quote:
...you're talking about built in obsolescence — that would mean hatcheries are selecting *for* the gene to develop internal lay after a period of time (whether that comes about because of a genetic susceptibility to something feed related, or some kind of neat genetic fault). Yes, I could believe it. In fact, looked at from a profit perspective, a hatchery would be foolish not to. How terribly cruel and how good for business...

 

[speckledhen]

Erica, I don't think hatcheries are necessarily selecting for this, but rather, not selecting for longevity and against this malady. What would be their motivation to do so, you know?

Truly, I wish there was a good and right answer for this. I can see how today's commercial feeds may be, how do I say this, of lesser quality, paying more attention to the bottom line than the actual nutritional quality of the feed.

All I know is this: I take really great care of my birds and no matter how much I supplement their nutrition with eggs, fish, yogurt, good wheat germ and olive oils, flax seed and vitamins, the hatchery girls still die from internal laying and the breeder birds don't get it, at least so far. There's nothing else I can do other than what I'm doing.

The bottom line is that some who say it must be the feed don't offer any solutions to fix that-what is the answer? I can't grow my own feed and my birds free range so they get a super healthy diet outside of the layer pellets and other things that I give them. I just cannot buy the feed angle, not at this time, not from my experience with this.

 

[crtrlovr]

Quote:
I couldn't even find anyone around here that would attempt the surgery. The closest avian vet to me is an hour away. I made the appt. on a Mon. morning after I saw her abdomen full of fluid on Fri. evening. The appt. was for Thurs., she died Mon. evening. Layman's necropsy found mass of hardened and/or gummy stuff in the abdomen. I would have been willing to pay for a hysterectomy for her, even though it would likely have been tough to come up with it. It wasn't her fault her plumbing was faulty. My mom said, "It's not your fault, either". I told her no, it wasn't, but it WAS my responsibility to do the best I could for her, and to give her the best quality of life I could provide.

 

[ChickenAlgebra]

I will say our BR girls are all hatchery. Our new kids are all hatchery. We debate getting into better chickens, but we don't show really, we have good Orphs, JG, bantam Cochins, so that's fine for us. The BRs lay eggs, they do that well. We've had BRs for 6 years now, and never had egg laying problems in them. They sure aren't show quality at all.

Our LF Cochins were from a decent line, we thought. As it turns out, live and learn, egg problems were pretty well known at least to the breeder. They sure were pretty per standard. Just not for production.

I wish there was a middle ground. Well bred, nice chickens. Who didn't have crappy health.

I also note that hatchery birds by and large are not as long living. Our BRs lay until about 3, maybe 4. We've got an 6 y/o JG girl who never stops laying, every 24 hours.

 

[Erica]

Speckledhen, it's probably more the case that (as you say) hatcheries don't select against it, but there's a distinct possibility that the breeders are quite conscious of the short lifespan and are fairly happy with it as it ensures a market. Some might be driven to factor it in as a desirable trait; I don't know. You'd have to hope they don't.

However I tend to think that if it was just a case of not caring about lifespan (say, breeding only from young pullets) then you'd see a range of age related health problems and syndromes and cancers, not just internal laying on its own. I'm sure we do see other problems but it does sound like there's a huge amount of EYP around, far more than anything else. I've seen those sausage things fairly regularly on websites.

Whatever the case, like you I would think the inclusion of plenty of home grown grass and other additives should lower the cases of EYP if there's a feed element (or genetic sensitivity to something e.g. soy estrogens). Then again birds don't take a whole lot of grass overall (though they often appear to). I don't know the answer, and I don't feel in any way critical of your feeding system — it sounds like it should be working. The fact is, you're losing hatchery birds at a high rate to something that isn't affecting your other birds — there has to be a strongly genetic element.

 

[RustyHen]

I have been reading along with this sub and wondered if it might be sensitivity to the geneticaly changed corn, wheat, all of our grains really. they have been messing around with all kinds of strange things to "save" on weed and insect control.
maybe the hens are the tip of the iceburg.

 

[speckledhen]

Erica, you can imagine that I've beat my head against a wall trying to figure all this out, consulted knowledgeable people, all the while watching one hen after another suffer for months, then pass away.

The deaths began just after the original group hit their 2nd birthday, then one by one, they all went. I have three originals left who made it past 5 years old, but Lexie hasn't laid an egg in a year and I'm sure that stuff is backing up inside somehow.She has no stamina and will sit and rest, breathing heavily, when the others are still out roaming around. Reba is still laying, or was, up until a week ago, and now, she's been going on the nest, sitting and leaving so she may be on her way as well. Sunny stopped laying a few weeks ago, but has not been back on a nest and other than being a tad to thin, she has no symptoms of this right now. At this point, they are considered elderly anyway so I'm prepared to lose the last three within the next year or so.

I have two hatchery Brahmas who are over 4 years old and they are still laying, no problems at all so far.


We have discussed the GM corn that has made its way into so many products as a possible cause, but I just don't know. In the meantime, I'll keep taking the best care of them I know how and hope that once most of the hatchery girls are gone, I won't see this again for many years.

 

[suebee]

None of mine were hatchery chickens. Since 2003 I've had 6 silkies die of this. Now that I think about it, my first silkies chicks were bought locally. I don't think she fed them a commercial starter/layer. I remember her tossing them goat feed. Out of 4 silkie chicks, 2 were female. I mated them and they hatched babies. From that original line of silkies, all have died from internal laying but one. I still have her from that line and I've refused to hatch her eggs. I'm guessing she's 6 years old and a very lucky lady so far.

As far as feeding, all mine got commercial starter, Dumor. Commercial layer, Dumor or Purina. Black oil SS, a little scratch, oyster shell, and plenty of pesticide-free grass and bugs...all free range.

The first sign for EVERY SINGLE bird was sitting in the nest for a while, then joining the flock with a penguin stance, slow gait, overall malaise. Repeat....nest sitting, walk w/ penguin stance, etc. Then the weight starts coming off rapidly. Soon after green poo, death. With each one a broad spectrum antibiotic was given, along with massive amounts of protein such as eggs, peanut butter, etc.
In the end, they just stopped eating and drinking. They just wasted away and all organs just shut down.

I had one die within 24 hours of laying something like this, not my pic, it's CC's but looked exactly the same.

 

[speckledhen]

I've seen that so many times, I don't care to count, suebee.

Mine not only get commercial feed appropriate to their age and function, but added calcium and protein, sometimes flax seed, pumpkin seed, active culture yogurt and greens. They do free range several times each week. The originals grew up free ranging every day, all day long, but after I got more than one rooster, I divided up the groups and alternating their times outside the pens. They have no shortage of fresh air and sunshine. There's only so much we can do for our birds and I doubt we can overcome their genetics.

 

[teach1rusl]

I just lost my sweet little SF girl to what I suspect is internal laying. I didn't do an autopsy, but after posting about her condition several times over the past several months, it's what I've concluded. She was not hatchery - purchased from a nearby SF breeder. She was not quite a year old.
She would get so down for a day or two, droopy, not eating, expelling what looked like egg white goo - never laying an egg. But then she would perk back up for weeks at a time (although her energy level was never that of my other girls). Her weight would come and go with her illness. She'd cycled through that probably 4 or 5 times since late Fall. One young hen I had would pick on her mercilessly, I think because she knew she was sickly. Although the bully was a great layer, I gave her away not quite two weeks ago so that my sick girl could live a little easier. Not a week later Peaches (the SF) went through another sick phase...just laying in the grass, ignoring the bit of scratch I tried to tempt her with. When I went to check on her later, I found her nestled into the bedding inside the coop, dead. I was so happy she'd gotten to live her last few days bully-free, enjoying the warmer temps and green spring grass.