Texas

[bnjrob]

Nope, not bored. I may not be breeding a specific breed, but I am breeding for specific traits. I want large, birds that are good layers and provide a good table bird. I want the hens to be tame enough to be able to check for injuries and doctor them when needed, but they don't have to be lap chickens either. The cock should be a good breeder and protector but should never injure a hen or offer me aggression. I will knock that cock silly if he even looks to offer me aggression, and if he does it to many times I will make him dinner, just like I did with the 4 cockerels that were injuring my pullets and terrorizing my goslings.

With 24 hens, 1 cock isn't enough to ensure fertility. And while I don't intend to hatch all eggs, we plan on eating a lot of them, I do want to hatch some chicks for table birds and to have a next generation. I also got this black Orp because of his size, I want his chicks to be bigger. After a few years, I will cull both current roosters and bring in 2 new cocks to breed all the pullets we hatched and kept. Once again focusing on egg laying and size. This is my flock management plan. I can only have 1 permanent chicken coop, I can put a temporary grow out pen for cockerels next year, but I need to be able to take it down as well. So I am working with 1 flock to achieve my goals which means I need to cull my roosters often to prevent inbreeding. I am also doing something similar with my ducks and geese, who are in my waterfowl coop. But I may have to separate the ducks from the geese during breeding season, which is why temporary pens are needed.

Sounds like you're pretty much doing what we're doing.

Breeding strictly for production can be just as time consuming as breeding to the SOP. We don't have an interest in showing, but we do breed to the SOP on top of breeding for production.

I hear ya on snarky roosters! We've only had a couple people-aggressive cocks - they were tasty .

Wish we could have permanent housing. We have to drag giant chicken tractors around the pasture with the tractor due to building/digging restrictions from underground utilities/pipeline running through our pasture. Only place we could build stationary housing is way up at the front of our property and being a couple of acres away from the house is not convenient for taking care of chickens. Not to mention it being out at the road which is a busy road for commuters heading to the interstate.

Our chickens would fit what you want as "friendly". We can pick them up. Now if they don't want to be picked up and they are in the pasture - they'll make us chase them and we have some nets to use if needed. But inside a pen, it isn't too much trouble to pick up most of them. They are accustomed to being handled to change leg band sizes as they grow and to be examined for things like weight, pelvic width, keel depth, etc. We use scratch as a training tool to get them comfy with us. When they are out ranging in the pasture - the sight of the scratch bucket will bring them to me in a hurry and if they are in the pens, they generally try to stampede me if they think I have treats.

our goals have changed a lot since we first decided to get chickens. Originally we just wanted good homestead chickens - meat, eggs, bug control, manure. Then we researched the Javas and really liked their long history and decided to work on preservation breeding with them since they nearly went extinct. Javas used to be recommended as all around farm bird and were considered some of the finest table fowl of the late 19th/early 20th centuries. So we're working to get them back to their "former glory" a birds with jobs and hopefully interest more people to keep them so they don't nearly go extinct again.

We're still a long way from being able to hatch and keep as many as we need to be able to supply all of our chicken meat needs though. But I'm not giving up hope. If/when we can get our house finished (fixer upper) and move to a larger place where we can have different housing, I anticipate that it will be easier to keep as many chickens as we need to fully supply us. I want to be able to eventually never have to buy chicken at the store again. I do want to work on getting a little more breast meat on them. Leg meat is terrific - their leg bones and meat are way bigger than anything at the store but I'd like to see a little more fleshing out of their breasts.

We do get plenty of eggs.

And broodiness is actually a problem for me. They are going broody so often. Lost a couple in the heat last summer from dehydration - they just didn't want to get off that nest and drink. And we're working on hatching when it is cooler, so that they grow larger because they eat more when it's not so hot. So of course between slowing down on laying a bit for winter this year and then going broody while I was trying to set eggs in December/January, we didn't get nearly as many eggs from the breeding hens that I wanted to hatch.

I would like to increase egg size overall - some lay huge ones and others are nice mediums. I think once we get their overall size improved and have more of them that don't have pinched tails, that the egg size will also increase throughout the entire flock. If it doesn't, then I'll be sure to do specific trap nesting and try to hatch just from the absolute largest eggs laid.

 

[Starfire669]

Decided to see what would happen if I let the ducklings out. Choas, the chickens and geese went for them so back in their playpen for safety. But I got this pic before I caught them.

 

[Starfire669]

Sounds like you're pretty much doing what we're doing.

Breeding strictly for production can be just as time consuming as breeding to the SOP.  We don't have an interest in showing, but we do breed to the SOP on top of breeding for production. 

I hear ya on snarky roosters! We've only had a couple people-aggressive cocks - they were tasty . 

Wish we could have permanent housing.  We have to drag giant chicken tractors around the pasture with the tractor due to building/digging restrictions from underground utilities/pipeline running through our pasture.  Only place we could build stationary housing is way up at the front of our property and being a couple of acres away from the house is not convenient for taking care of chickens.  Not to mention it being out at the road which is a busy road for commuters heading to the interstate.

Our chickens would fit what you want as "friendly".  We can pick them up.  Now if they don't want to be picked up and they are in the pasture - they'll make us chase them and we have some nets to use if needed.  But inside a pen, it isn't too much trouble to pick up most of them.  They are accustomed to being handled to change leg band sizes as they grow and to be examined for things like weight, pelvic width, keel depth, etc.  We use scratch as a training tool to get them comfy with us.  When they are out ranging in the pasture - the sight of the scratch bucket will bring them to me in a hurry and if they are in the pens, they generally try to stampede me if they think I have treats. 

our goals have changed a lot since we first decided to get chickens.  Originally we just wanted good homestead chickens - meat, eggs, bug control, manure.  Then we researched the Javas and really liked their long history and decided to work on preservation breeding with them since they nearly went extinct.  Javas used to be recommended as all around farm bird and were considered some of the finest table fowl of the late 19th/early 20th centuries.  So we're working to get them back to their "former glory" a birds with jobs and hopefully interest more people to keep them so they don't nearly go extinct again.   

We're still a long way from being able to hatch and keep as many as we need to be able to supply all of our chicken meat needs though.  But I'm not giving up hope.  If/when we can get our house finished (fixer upper) and move to a larger place where we can have different housing, I anticipate that it will be easier to keep as many chickens as we need to fully supply us.  I want to be able to eventually never have to buy chicken at the store again.  I do want to work on getting a little more breast meat on them.  Leg meat is terrific - their leg bones and meat are way bigger than anything at the store but I'd like to see a little more fleshing out of their breasts. 

We do get plenty of eggs. 

And broodiness is actually a problem for me.  They are going broody so often.  Lost a couple in the heat last summer from dehydration - they just didn't want to get off that nest and drink.  And we're working on hatching when it is cooler, so that they grow larger because they eat more when it's not so hot.  So of course between slowing down on laying a bit for winter this year and then going broody while I was trying to set eggs in December/January, we didn't get nearly as many eggs from the breeding hens that I wanted to hatch. 

I would like to increase egg size overall - some lay huge ones and others are nice mediums.  I think once we get their overall size improved and have more of them that don't have pinched tails, that the egg size will also increase throughout the entire flock.  If it doesn't, then I'll be sure to do specific trap nesting and try to hatch just from the absolute largest eggs laid.

My birds are coming to me when I have scratch, will even eat out of my hands, but then I can't catch them as my hand is full of grain. A few will allow me to catch them free ranging, mainly my BRs. But I can get them in the coops so that's not a huge concern for me. Just as long as they don't try to fight me while I am checking them for illness or injury, all is good.

I may decide on a specific breed later, but for now will be happy with good producing mutt chickens. They can teach me all the stuff I forgot or never learned when my parents had chickens, ducks, and geese. I am breeding strictly Cayuga ducks though, and going to mix African and Chinese geese for size and eggs just like my chickens, but using only those 2 breeds of geese.

 

[Starfire669]

Dang phone finally let me upload the 2nd picture of Ebony with the ducklings.

 

[bnjrob]

I guess I should also mention, that I got different chicken breeds to start with. I did this to try and see which breeds I liked, and also as an attempt to reduce inbreeding. All my chickens came from the same hatchery and are probably already inbred. I currently have 6 RIRs, 6 BOs, 6 BAs, 5 BRs, and 1 SLW hens (out of 7 SLW chicks, 6 were cockerels and all of the cockerels were way too aggressive, talk about psychotic birds. The RIR cockerel was just as bad, and the hens aren't anything special). There are things I don't like about the SLWs or the RIRs, so I will focus on the Orpingtons, Austrolorps, and Rocks as the breeds for me. Both of my roosters are from outside sources and are not related to the hatchery stock. This is especially true of the black Orp cockerel, as he is from show lines and Ideal don't carry black Orps. I know I will have to occasionally bring in hens for new blood, but I hope that by focusing on getting good outside roosters often, I can reduce how many new birds I need to bring in, as well as increase size and productivity in my chickens.

If you have any tips for my flock management to reach my stated goals, please share them.

I have heard that hatchery RIRs are pretty consistently a problem when it comes to behavior. Not sure why, but "everybody" seems to say this about that particular breed.

You know there are some different thoughts on breeding and when new blood to be brought in. And "they" say that if you do the line breeding and keep at least two different males, that you can go a long time without needing new blood. But then there is an old breeder that says she breeds whatever chickens have the traits she wants to strengthen and help to fix any traits that are a problem - regardless of who their parents/siblings are.

I think it's whatever works for the individual and if you see that you are getting a whole lot of deformities in the chicks you hatch - then you know that something is wrong and you need to look at everything, including whether or not new blood needs to be added.

Not a bad idea to get more than one breed to see if it is something that you like or don't like. And if doing that, going the hatchery stock route is certainly going to be a lot less expensive than trying to get breeder bloodlines - especially if you find out that you don't much care for some expensive birds that you bought.

We had chickens as kids, but our families didn't do "serious" breeding of any kind - there was a rooster and the chickens had sex and hatched eggs. Nobody really paid attention to all the finer points of things. So we're still trekking along trying to figure out how we're going to do things. And just when we think we have a plan down, something changes and we have to change what we're doing.

Rocks were made using Javas, so I do have a bit of familiarity with them. A poorly "typed" Rock can look like a Java and a poorly typed Java can end up looking like a Plymouth Rock. The differences sometimes are pretty subtle. But they should be big birds like our Javas.

For getting your size up, things to look at:

Time of year you're hatching. Experienced breeders keep telling me that hatching and growing out when it is cooler will help get your size up. So far I've seen that this is true. I do eventually want the chickens to brood and not have to always incubate, but I think once we get their size up to where it should be, that even letting the hens hatch/brood in the spring, we'll have the size set well enough in the flock that it won't make as much of a difference if they are hatching in spring versus late fall/winter.

The biggest noticeable improvement for size was when we separated chicks out by gender. We did not fully understand just how much the cockerels running the pullets around and chasing each other caused the young ones to be stressed out, eat less, and exercise more. Last year we tried separating them - HUGE difference in how fast they grew and how large they got compared to their parents. This year we separated them out at 2 months instead of 4 months old. That has seemed to help even more - that way for sure none of the cockerels were anywhere near interested in girls by the time we separated them.

We also use higher protein feed since these guys are not just layers but meat birds - something that was recommended to us to improve and maintain size. We can't afford expensive feed and we can't even find some feed that we'd like to try. So we feed the Dumor (Tractor Supply brand) 24% chick feed (labeled for turkeys, quail). They get that until they are about 4-5 months old. Then they go to Purina Flock Raiser which is about 21% protein. It doesn't have meat in it and we'd prefer to have meat protein, but it's what we can get that has a higher protein level than the regular 15-16% feed that most of the feed stores carry. And we throw out kitchen scrap - they love meat leftovers and will fight over a piece of meat.

Have had to tweak the protein level in the past - butchered some 10 month old cockerels that were VERY fatty inside. And too much abdominal fat can decrease fertility and egg laying. I had been feeding the 24% protein up until they were a year old - now I am just doing it till 4-5 months. Will see if that change decreases the level of fat in the birds we butcher this year. Have kinda hoped that we would have a hen die that we could cut open just to see her abdominal fat level compared to the first fatty cockerels that we butchered, but that hasn't happened. But I figure that we can just go by the amount of fat in the males until it comes time to butcher an old hen or one dies so that we can cut it open and examine it.

Have you checked out the Livestock Conservancy? They have good stuff on examining your birds for meat and egg production with pictures even.

That's all I can think of at the moment that you might be interested in for trying to increase your size and such - things that we have done that have worked. Might think of more things later.

 

[bnjrob]

My birds are coming to me when I have scratch, will even eat out of my hands, but then I can't catch them as my hand is full of grain. A few will allow me to catch them free ranging, mainly my BRs. But I can get them in the coops so that's not a huge concern for me. Just as long as they don't try to fight me while I am checking them for illness or injury, all is good.

I may decide on a specific breed later, but for now will be happy with good producing mutt chickens. They can teach me all the stuff I forgot or never learned when my parents had chickens, ducks, and geese. I am breeding strictly Cayuga ducks though, and going to mix African and Chinese geese for size and eggs just like my chickens, but using only those 2 breeds of geese.

LOL - yeah, I've had to get them to eat out of my hand and then just throw down the scratch to snag one.

Ducks and geese would be great. If our pond was all on our property I would get some but we have an odd neighbor and I worry that if we had ducks and geese he would throw a fit if they got on his side of the pond - which is bigger than the part of the pond on our property. Have not eaten a goose. Yet. Found a duck at the store after Christmas that wasn't too expensive compared to the price during the holidays. Great eating. I figure if a store bought duck tastes that good, a homegrown one should be awesome.

Sometimes I wish we had started the serious breeding with mutt chickens. Having the stress of not being able to go to the feed store to replace one if they die (or I kill it accidently) is frustrating at times.

 

[RustedOak]

I'm very interested in the idea of raising meat chickens to stock my freezer but I live on .45 ac in the city so 4-6 is all I have room for and no roos... Still, I'm doing the research because the wife and I plan on getting 3-5 rural acres in the not so distant future. In the mean time, I'm considering meat rabbits because they require little space and rabbit bucks don't crow so no worries there. lol Anybody here raise rabbits?

 

[Starfire669]

I have heard that hatchery RIRs are pretty consistently a problem when it comes to behavior.  Not sure why, but "everybody" seems to say this about that particular breed.

You know there are some different thoughts on breeding and when new blood to be brought in.  And "they" say that if you do the line breeding and keep at least two different males, that you can go a long time without needing new blood.  But then there is an old breeder that says she breeds whatever chickens have the traits she wants to strengthen and help to fix any traits that are a problem - regardless of who their parents/siblings are.

I think it's whatever works for the individual and if you see that you are getting a whole lot of deformities in the chicks you hatch - then you know that something is wrong and you need to look at everything, including whether or not new blood needs to be added.

Not a bad idea to get more than one breed to see if it is something that you like or don't like.  And if doing that, going the hatchery stock route is certainly going to be a lot less expensive than trying to get breeder bloodlines - especially if you find out that you don't much care for some expensive birds that you bought.

We had chickens as kids, but our families didn't do "serious" breeding of any kind - there was a rooster and the chickens had sex and hatched eggs.  Nobody really paid attention to all the finer points of things.  So we're still trekking along trying to figure out how we're going to do things.  And just when we think we have a plan down, something changes and we have to change what we're doing.

Rocks were made using Javas, so I do have a bit of familiarity with them.  A poorly "typed" Rock can look like a Java and a poorly typed Java can end up looking like a Plymouth Rock.  The differences sometimes are pretty subtle.  But they should be big birds like our Javas.

For getting your size up, things to look at:  

Time of year you're hatching.  Experienced breeders keep telling me that hatching and growing out when it is cooler will help get your size up.  So far I've seen that this is true.   I do eventually want the chickens to brood and not have to always incubate, but I think once we get their size up to where it should be, that even letting the hens hatch/brood in the spring, we'll have the size set well enough in the flock that it won't make as much of a difference if they are hatching in spring versus late fall/winter.

The biggest noticeable improvement for size was when we separated chicks out by gender.  We did not fully understand just how much the cockerels running the pullets around and chasing each other caused the young ones to be stressed out, eat less, and exercise more.  Last year we tried separating them - HUGE difference in how fast they grew and how large they got compared to their parents.  This year we separated them out at 2 months instead of 4 months old.  That has seemed to help even more - that way for sure none of the cockerels were anywhere near interested in girls by the time we separated them.

We also use higher protein feed since these guys are not just layers but meat birds - something that was recommended to us to improve and maintain size.  We can't afford expensive feed and we can't even find some feed that we'd like to try.  So we feed the Dumor (Tractor Supply brand) 24% chick feed (labeled for turkeys, quail).  They get that until they are about 4-5 months old.  Then they go to Purina Flock Raiser which is about 21% protein.  It doesn't have meat in it and we'd prefer to have meat protein, but it's what we can get that has a higher protein level than the regular 15-16% feed that most of the feed stores carry.  And we throw out kitchen scrap - they love meat leftovers and will fight over a piece of meat. 

Have had to tweak the protein level in the past - butchered some 10 month old cockerels that were VERY fatty inside.  And too much abdominal fat can decrease fertility and egg laying.  I had been feeding the 24% protein up until they were a year old - now I am just doing it till 4-5 months.  Will see if that change decreases the level of fat in the birds we butcher this year.  Have kinda hoped that we would have a hen die that we could cut open just to see her abdominal fat level compared to the first fatty cockerels that we butchered, but that hasn't happened.  But I figure that we can just go by the amount of fat in the males until it comes time to butcher an old hen or one dies so that we can cut it open and examine it.

Have you checked out the Livestock Conservancy?  They have good stuff on examining your birds for meat and egg production with pictures even.

That's all I can think of at the moment that you might be interested in for trying to increase your size and such - things that we have done that have worked.  Might think of more things later.

I may have to try Java hens later. I'd like to keep some broodiness in my hens but not too much. And if rocks and Javas are related I might like the Java breed. At least I know to talk to you if I want a couple pullets to try, lol. I am not going to hatch any chicks this year if I can help it, I want to wait till the ladies are more mature. So guess next fall is when I will attempt to let a hen go broody or incubate. What incubator would you recommend? I don't have one yet, but am looking for one that can also do duck and goose eggs, just in case none of my ducks or geese go broody. I am also feeding flock raiser to my flock, it's much easier than having 1 goose/duck feed and 1 chicken feed. Plan on switching to the Purina all flock layer feed once they get to laying age for the same reason.

If you want, we can exchange phone numbers through PM, that way we can exchange ideas that work on our respective breeding goals without blowing up the Texas thread, lol.

 

[Starfire669]

LOL - yeah, I've had to get them to eat out of my hand and then just throw down the scratch to snag one. 

Ducks and geese would be great.  If our pond was all on our property I would get some but we have an odd neighbor and I worry that if we had ducks and geese he would throw a fit if they got on his side of the pond - which is bigger than the part of the pond on our property.  Have not eaten a goose.  Yet.  Found a duck at the store after Christmas that wasn't too expensive compared to the price during the holidays.  Great eating.  I figure if a store bought duck tastes that good, a homegrown one should be awesome.

Sometimes I wish we had started the serious breeding with mutt chickens.  Having the stress of not being able to go to the feed store to replace one if they die (or I kill it accidently) is frustrating at times.

I plan on slaughtering my extra gander for Christmas this year, so I will let you know how goose tastes. I have 3 female Cayuga ducklings and 1 male Cayuga. I am looking for more females from a different source to once again not inbreed my ducks since they are from Ideal. Once they start breeding I can always send you eggs or you could pick up Cayuga ducklings from me if you like. Same with my geese. They are happy with kiddie pools, though you need to clean the pools daily. So you could have them in large pens or tractors. The geese need lots of tender young grass, it's their main diet and since you use the flock raiser you are already buying to correct feed for them and ducks. If you want to breed them that could be an issue, but you could get a couple geese and ducks, raise them, slaughter them and see if you like the taste enough to bother getting a breeding flock off the ground. And geese make excellent lawn mowers and watch dogs, lol.

And the cost of getting started, even using hatchery birds was still high. But as we are just starting and experimenting hatchery stock was the way to go. We will see what happens in the future, lol.

 

[RustedOak]

Feel free to blow up the thread... Though I won't be doing any hatching anytime soon, I'm always down to learn more! (I'm a nerd like that lol)