Texas

The question remains, did you even look at the article? A certain species of moths in England changed color from light to dark in response to the pollution of the industrial revolution and then back to light again when pollution from the turn of the 20th century dropped, in about 100 years.

It happened quickly and was studied.

I would expect that Texas rattle snakes that don't rattle will have an distinct advantage over Texas rattle snakes that do. Ones that rattle will get killed. You suggested that a rattle snakes response to being shot would be to develop a thicker skin. As I said, you don't understand evolution. Dead rattle snakes can't change in response to their environment. And, even that isn't quite correct. It isn't the individual that changes, it is that a certain trait is better at surviving (it is the "fitting-est") in that particular environment. If it has a survival advantage, it will reproduce while the one with the disadvantage will not reproduce as much. The organism doesn't respond to what kills it (since it is dead), it is that others without the trait are more likely to survive and reproduce. Shooting rattle snakes won't get you a thicker skinned rattle snake. It will likely get you one without a rattle.

In the English moth situation, a light colored moth (the normal color) was at a distinct disadvantage as their environment changed from being non polluted, to being coated in grime from the burning of coal. Pollution was awful. The light colored moths were easily seen by predators. That favored the survival of darker colored moths. There was a shift in the population away from light colors to dark colors. Those that were the lightest were not likely to survive to reproduce. Then, when the pollution ended, the dark moths weren't favored (since there had to be a survival advantage to the light colored moth in the first place) and so they reverted back to their light color. All in 100 years. Pretty amazing to see evolution at work in a generation or two, don't you think?

Okay. This is a chicken forum and not the best place to have this kind of discussion. I did not intend to start this discussion here. I posted a funny video and you did not get the joke. I was simply explaining the joke to you. You obviously did not find the joke funny and disagree with the premise. That’s okay, I don’t think David Letterman is funny either, but a lot of people do.

For the sake of trying to express the difference between what you are trying to prove and what most of the people on this thread are saying, I will attempt to, in the most balanced form, explain this to you.

The problem lies, not in what the video is about or what you are saying. It lies in the definition of the word “Evolution”. There are six different meanings to the word. The reason most people get in arguments over this subject is that they have not defined which meaning of the word they are talking about. For instance, all of the statements you have made and the examples you have offered are all about Microevolution (or micro adaptation). Microevolution is minor changes within a kind of animal. I don’t think there is a single person on this forum that has any argument with the concept of micro adaptations occurring within a kind of animal. We are all chicken breeders for crying out loud. It is through the process of micro adaptation that we improve our birds to show quality. So in this regard, you are getting all excited trying to convince people of a concept that everybody is already in agreement with. You are essentially preaching to the choir.

The problem with your line of reasoning is that are trying you defend Darwin’s theory of evolution which is about “Macroevolution”, not “Microevolution”. Macroevolution is the process by which one kind of animal turns into another kind of animal; a starfish turning into a monkey, for instance. Now, Darwin did try to use microevolution via undirected natural selection as a vehicle to explain his theory of macroevolution, but microevolution via undirected natural selection is an inadequate vehicle to explain macroevolution, because microevolution via undirected natural selection is a lossy process. What this means is that, microevolution via undirected natural selection, results in to reduction of genetic information, not the acquisition of new genetic information; the latter of which would be necessary for the macroevolution to occur.

Since this is a chicken forum, let us use chickens to understand this question. I like chickens for this, because we have a good understanding of where chickens came from and can observe them over a long period of time. We all know and agree that all the types (or breeds) of chickens in the world today came from the Jungle Fowl that was domesticated from the wild around four thousand years ago. Fortunately for us, there are still Jungle Fowl living in the wilds from which they originally came today and so we can see what the birds looked like that were the ancestors to all modern chickens. To say that there are some radical differences between the Jungle Fowl and some of the chicken breeds today is an understatement. But regardless of the difference in the color, size and shape, there is one common thread that connects them all, they are all still chickens.

The Scientific Process is about what can be observed and tested. What we can observe about chickens after over four thousand years of intensive breeding to produce different qualities is that, a chicken will become a chicken, will become a chicken, will become a chicken. Not once in the four thousand history of chicken breeding, after countless millions of attempts, has a chicken ever become anything but a chicken. In fact, in spite of the wide array of colors and sizes, they have never even changed into a different type of avian. They were ground dwelling avians four thousand years ago and they are still ground dwelling avians today.

Now here comes the interesting part. If you could capture true pure Jungle Fowl from the wild today and subject them to another four thousand years of targeted breeding, you could potentially reproduce most if not all of the chicken breeds we have today. But you could never take a breed like the Silver Sebright and get a pure Jungle Fowl (from just them) no matter how long you bred them. The reason for this is what I said before, “microevolution is a lossy process”. Basically, a true pure Jungle Fowl would have all of the genetic building blocks already in it to produce all the breeds we have today, but as a result of target breeding, we have reduced the genetic information of the breeds today so that they do not have the genetic building blocks to go back to what they once were. And some of your breeds, like the Silver Sebright, have so little genetic variables that they probably could not change that much at all anymore.

What this shows us is that an animals ability to adapt to it’s environment is conditional on the genetic qualities that are already present in the animal, not the new genetic qualities it will develop. Darwin’s theory of macroevolution is dependent on an animal developing new genetic information to adapt to a new and changing environment and the evidence for this is not observable or testable in nature, and therefore, Darwins theory, does not follow the Scientific Process.

Take for example the rare breeds of chickens in Australia. The government of Australia has not allowed the importation of new chickens for over 60 years and as a result the rare breeds of chickens in Australia are in danger as a result of genetic deficiencies that have resulted in the degradation and reduction of their genetic code and variables due to inbreeding. You can read about this here: http://www.worldpoultry.net/Breeder...nbreeding-within-rare-breed-poultry-1235703W/

What this clearly shows us is that animals cannot spontaneously produce genetic code within themselves to deal with environmental conditions. It shows that the genetic code must come from an outside source, as we can observe with the rare breeds of chickens in Australia and the Australian breeders efforts to import new breeds to fix the genetic problems with their rare breeds.

In summery. It is clear from what we can observe and test (Scientific Process) overtime in chickens, that while a certain kind of animal can undergo micro changes within it’s kind, it cannot make a macro jump to a different kind of animal. We can also see that the ability of an animal to undergo micro adaptation to it’s environment is completely dependent on the genetic variable already present in the animal. Furthermore, we can also see through observation and testing that an animal cannot spontaneously produce new genetic information within itself and that the only way for it to acquire new genetic information is to outcross itself with another animal of the same kind.

It is amazing what you can learn by just observing the history of chickens.


To everyone, this is my last post about this. I felt that if I could make it about chickens it would be okay to go ahead and write it. I hope you enjoyed it. If not, that's okay too. We are all free to believe what we want to believe as long as we respect each other.
 
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:thumbsup DE should run the fireants off

How do you use it for fire ants?  Thanks.

I cover the ground, where you see ants, pretty heavy. I have it in a pen with baby chicks & it hasn't hurt them. I've had good luck using grits to kill fireants but if the mounds are where the chickens are the chickens will eat the grits :( although I have noticed after the chickens got through scratching up the ants while eating the grits that the ants seemed to disappear. Guess they didn't like their spot being disturbed :yesss:
 
Bee has been on the ChickenForum a lot lately. (Me too) She answers a lot a post over there. She is just "Bee" on that site.
She has one of the best attitudes I have ever known of, not just about chickens either.
I have been using FF for 3 weeks now, thanks to Bee and I can tell a difference in their size, egg yolk color and the poop is harder. It is well worth the effort. It also stopped the rodent problem I was having and my feed bill has almost been cut in half. I am also starting the chicks out on it and they seem to be growing faster than usual.

Haven't been on much lately so just want to say hi to all the new folks and welcome to the Texas Thread.

I think a lot of the old "regulars" who have left this thread have moved over there!

(I love all of y'all but you guys aren't exactly sweet
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Understatement of the century!

We are Texans right? We are tough, we are strong, we don’t back down, but we are also gentle, we are kind, we help our neighbors in need, we accept other for who they are, the whole time without losing who we are as individuals.

If I find a predator on my land, my first duty is to protect my kids, then my dogs, then my chickens. That is my right! However, it is also 100% someone else’s right to not agree with that. Maybe they have other solutions that work, maybe they don’t, I can listen to what they say and either apply or agree to disagree. However, I will stand firmly on fighting for the right any person to voice their opinion, even if I don’t always agree. No matter what, everyone should be treated with respect.

I love to hear different opinions/methods without attacks about personal character or beliefs. I will apply what works for me and not apply what does not.

Nope, don’t expect everyone to agree with this post either.

Sadly the first bold part has proven to be untrue within this thread. I have talked to a couple people who no longer recommend this thread to newbies because of it.

I do agree with the rest of the bold part!

This thread has become soooo opinionated and is one of the reasons I haven't been on much and notice some of the regulars are not on much lately either. We all have opinions but it seems a few people are trying to push buttons just to get reactions. Everyone has their opinions and are entitled to them.
Just so everyone will know where I am on things....I believe in God, I believe he created the universe, I don't believe he did it in 7 days, I believe we evolved and are still evolving but we didn't evolve "from" apes, I don't believe that heaven waits for only those who congregate, I believe in killing and eating animals, I believe in spanking children that need it, I think marijuana should be legalized, I think we should eliminate High School football from the program (too many head injuries), I don't believe in Obamacare, I don't believe in welfare, I don't think we should bomb Syria *Catches breath* I think we should put the military on the border and shoot the sneaky ******** as they try to come across, I think George Bush did the best he could. I think Walmart is evil and I think GMO is a bad thing. I have thought and read a lot on all of these topics and believe I am right on all accounts and don't think anyone could change my mind on any of it at this point. But these are mine and I respect any ones that differ from mine.
Can't we try and calm it down just a little?
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It's a shame that so many of the old regulars are avoiding this thread. I make sure my daughters are occupied doing other things when I read it because even my girls say the people here are "not very nice". When two little girls can spot the cattiness you know it's really bad!
 
DH is just about done with my new brooder. It has a flip up lid and then a flip down side for easy cleaning. Glad he thought of that, makes it easier on me! Now I can barely contain myself with wanting my new babies. The ones that were supposed to come last week BETTER come Thursday or I am gonna scream!
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That will be the little NNs. Then 1 more week til I get my JGs. I am glad DH wanted the NNs, now he can't complain about having to expand the coop and run!
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Good chicken discussion:
If we were to leave (all breeds) of chicken return to the wild for 100 years with no human interaction, what size of chicken, egg color, egg size, and colors in general of roosters and hens would be prevalent?
No right or wrong answers, just really think it would be interesting to hear what all y'all think would happen and why!
 

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