Théo and the chickens des Sauches

[ManueB]

It's getting warmer every day, I have to do all the garden stuff and rake the hay into stacks for Sunday before nine and after six, which is why I didn't post yesterday and probably won't tonight.

I didn't mention it before because I feel like every two day I'm worried about the chickens and often it's for nothing. But now it's been going on for a week at least, strange poops, yellow and very liquid, or reddish either with blood or intestinal lining, so I'm wondering if the chickens haven't caught coccidiosis. I thought it needed wet conditions to develop and it's very dry now, and warm, so I'm not sure. I'll call the vet's clinic on Monday to see what needs to be done to get them tested. It's not possible to get amprolium without a prescription, and I'm not even sure that is the actual problem.
Another worrying sign is that some of the hens yolk have become way lighter than usual. Normally they have really orange yolks and now they look like the yolk of supermarket eggs.
I haven't spent as much time with them as usual but none look obviously sick apart from Blanche and Piou-piou ; they do spend a lot of time sleeping or resting, but it's hard to tell if that's just because of the heat or if it's worrying lethargy.

Théo was lightly wounded yesterday when I came back from taking the hay. Up to now, he had always fled so fast that Gaston didn't get a chance to hurt him, which is less stressful than when they actually really fought, but apparently Gaston did manage to catch him while I was away.

On a lighter note, today the chicken had a feast thanks to our elderly neighbour! I feel a bit bad about this food chain. I explained before that he gives us quite a bit of the food his daughters cook for him. He always tells us not to tell them, but he thinks we eat it ourself. Most of the time it's meat and we don't eat it, so we give it to the chickens . Our poor chickens actually almost never get food scraps- we always finish eating everything we cook !
Guess what they were so excited about ?

Spoiler

roasted shredded chicken

Photos from yesterday and this morning.

 

[Perris]

on coccidiosis, my notes are "Coccidiosis: Birds will build immunity if not medicated. Do not treat" and I have been following this advice for some years now, and it works. But if you started the chicks on medicated chick feed then it's a different kettle of fish.

Our poor chickens actually almost never get food scraps

I thought they (well, Merle at least) helped themselves from your plates and didn't just wait patiently for left overs I bet that treat was downed in no time!

 

[Shadrach]

Birds will build immunity if not medicated.

While this is true to some extent a lot depends on how the birds are reared.
Medicated chick feed doesn't prevent a chick from getting coccidiosis, what it does is allows them to build immunity without dropping dead.
Should one hatch in an incubator and then dump the chicks onto natural ground once they are feathered or at whatever stage, they won't have any immunity because they've not been exposed before.
The other killer case is when a new strain of coccidiosis turns up.

 

[Perris]

I hatch under a broody but I can't see that's any different in terms of sterile new born chicks going onto natural ground at day 2 with no immunity and building it up by exposure. Am I missing something?

The drug in medicated chick feed is Amprolium right? Just mimicks vit B1 so the cocci starve (as long as the keeper isn't giving vit B1 by other routes). Very narrow margin for error according to Poultry dvm, with risk of death for getting it wrong https://poultrydvm.com/drugs/amprolium .

Any connection to the frequent reference to B vit deficiency in chickens on the pages of BYC?

 

[Shadrach]

I hatch under a broody but I can't see that's any different in terms of sterile new born chicks going onto natural ground at day 2 with no immunity and building it up by exposure. Am I missing something?

The drug in medicated chick feed is Amprolium right? Just mimicks vit B1 so the cocci starve (as long as the keeper isn't giving vit B1 by other routes). Very narrow margin for error according to Poultry dvm, with risk of death for getting it wrong https://poultrydvm.com/drugs/amprolium .

Any connection to the frequent reference to B vit deficiency in chickens on the pages of BYC?

No, I don't think you are missing anything.
Not many chicks here on BYC do go out on natural ground at day two, or even close to that. Feeding medicated feed is one way to develop a tolerance.
Some people take clods of earth and put these in the brooder in an attempt to build up tolerance.

 

[Perris]

Feeding medicated feed is one way to develop a tolerance

but that's pointless if they're in a brooder, and risks depriving the chicks of vit b1 doesn't it?

Surely giving fake vit B1 (which is what medicated feed and corid boils down to) only works to starve cocci if the bird consuming it already has cocci? Otherwise the only recipient of the fake vit B1 can be the bird.

 

[Shadrach]

but that's pointless if they're in a brooder, and risks depriving the chicks of vit b1 doesn't it?

Surely giving fake vit B1 (which is what medicated feed and corid boils down to) only works to starve cocci if the bird consuming it already has cocci? Otherwise the only recipient of the fake vit B1 can be the bird.

You have a point. Let me find some feed labels.

 

[RoyalChick]

Any connection to the frequent reference to B vit deficiency in chickens on the pages of BYC?

This part I know a bit about.
No, generally not.
Amprolium is a B1 analogue whereas most of the B deficiencies posted about (including by me) are B2 deficiencies that cause paralysis.
In extreme cases B1 deficiency can cause neurological symptoms (beriberi in humans) but that is pretty extreme and Amprolium is not sufficiently effective to cause that alone.
What is causing the B deficiencies I believe is old feed. All the vitamin B complex vitamins degrade. They are also water soluble and pass through the chicken rapidly.
That means chickens need to have them every day in their food and it also means that a bag of feed that is a bit old, or has been stored in sunlight, will have way less than the stated amount of the various B vitamins.
I am not alone in this theory but I haven't seen definitive proof of that being the cause (or even of there being more vitamin B posting than historically). What is absolutely true is that B vitamins have a relatively short shelf life.
I imagine the reason it isn't more problematic than it appears to be is that chickens can mostly supplement their own B vitamins by eating leafy greens. And of course the treats that some of us give like meat and dairy are also good sources.

 

[Shadrach]

This broilers feed uses Diclazuril and I believe there are other additives in other medicated chick feeds.
However, your point about it's pointless feeding medicated feed until the chicks are exposed to coccidiosis is valid.

 

[RoyalChick]

Diclazuril is an anti-protozoal drug mainly used in horses - its mechanism is not well understood but it is not related to the Vitamin B1 starvation of amprolium and from what I understand it attacks the coccidia organism directly.

The theory of the case on amprolium in medicated feed is to give it when very young chicks are exposed to coccidia for the first time. Their immunity is still developing and they can get overwhelmed so by making it harder for the coccidia to get established you give the chick time to develop its immunity.
As @Perris says, there is no point in doing that if the chick is in a sterile environment and not encountering any coccidia.
Then if a chicken actually has an infestation of coccidia - ie is suffering from coccidiosis - then a much higher dose of amprolium is given as a treatment not a preventative. I assume the method of action is the same but at a higher dose to try and interrupt the coccidia lifecycle.
I haven't looked into treatment but I imagine one would have to limit the duration in order to avoid B1 deficiency.
All that said, I am surprised amprolium requires a prescription in the EU but diclazuril can be added in feed. I would have put them the other way around in terms of safety etc.