The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[Chotii]

I've yet to see a Cemani hatch out with that kind of striping. That's really odd. Of the ones we've hatched out of Bean stock, we've had a few genuine splashes, clear combs, white feet.....but mostly just tiny bits of white on the wingtips and sometimes on the belly. Never stripes.Love to see how that one looks when it gets its adult feathers!

 

[cjwaldon]

I'd show you a couple examples, but then everyone would scream that my AC aren't pure, and I don't need that hit on my reputation. I don't sell eggs or chicks from the pen that produced that chick.

 

[Chotii]

I understand. I'm sorry that it's probably true, because I imagine that throwbacks can and do exist. Of course one doesn't breed from them, but they could be an interesting project in their own right....just call them something else.

 

[maranfarmer563]

I've never had a striped cemani either,I've seen white wing tips or toe nails. I have 3 dozen in the incubator now,hoping for a good hatch,they candled good

 

[Hatchery Hive]

For all those who hatched out their AC for themselves,
the only breed standard that is truly important is that YOU ARE HAPPY WITH YOUR BIRDS.
And Bravo to you too if you are happy!
Be proud... Post them photos!

But for those who are breeding for resale or show...
you will find that culling of 85% to 90% is mandatory if you wish to improve the AC breed.

Any white displayed at hatch, any at all, will result in their waddles and combs turning red...
And that is not all, they may look 100% black at hatch, but at 6 weeks, if any white feathers poke out of their neck,
they will turn red in their waddles and combs. And culling is in order yet again if you wish to clean up your lines...

This is true for ALL AC lines....
The only difference between the lines is that
some of the more famous lines have merely undergone this selective culling for several generations more than other lines and as their reward their culling rate is down to 45% - 50% and they sale for much higher amounts too...

I am convinced that all lines, every last one can, be cleaned up this way.
In fact, I have shown this to be true after just 1 generation.
Making your line as clean as GFF (the gold standard)
simply takes generational culling time and the occasional introduction of new genetic lines from time to time.

So, snooty folks claiming "your line is not pure Cemani because at hatch you have white feathers at the wing tips" is hog wash and fiddle sticks.
And, this behavior shows that they are naïve or have other motivations besides cleaning up and strengthening the breed nationwide.


Just my two cents based off of my real world experience...

Hatching Cemani eggs is TOUGH when just fetching them from your backyard hens.
It is exponentially more difficult when you get them in the mail.
Soooo CHEERS to everyone of you on your most excellent Hatches!
BRAVO!

 

[Hatchery Hive]

ps...
I could be wrong, but that stripped chick in your photo looks a lot like partridge bantam silky chick...


This is a photo of mine from a year ago...


A pretty bird, here is what they grow up to look like:

 

[hnsmom]

ps...
I could be wrong, but that stripped chick looks a lot like pheasant bantam chick...
This is a photo of mine from a year ago...

The striped chick actually looks just like it's black siblings, except for the yellow. It is the same size, has black legs, black beak, etc. Other than the yellow, it looks exactly like the others.
I am very surprised with the controversy on the boards here for chicks that do not hatch out to standards. Admittedly, I do not know a lot about chickens. DD is the chicken expert in the house. lol But my kids are in 4H and I am somewhat familiar with the breeding process with other animals and assumed it was the same for chickens. DD is going to breed her Rhinelander bunnies late summer/early fall. Rhinelanders are a pretty rarebreed of rabbit and there are not a ton of them here in the U.S. So very similar to the Ayam Cemanis although the Rhinelanders are better established I'd say. Even though she will use two show quality Rhinelanders with the proper markings, she knows to expect to have Sports (mostly white - which are not show quality - not to standards) and Charlies (a harlequin color with no white- also not to show quality and not to standards) - throwbacks to the original breeds. This is how Rhinelanders breed. When we choose an animal for 4H (whether a rabbit, a goat, a chicken, etc.) we are looking for the one we believe will best fit the breed standards. Not every animal in a litter will and the rest are considered pet quality or perhaps meat animals for some breeds. You keep the best and breed them to improve the breed. Obviously, we will not be breeding the little striped chick. It would not better the breed, and it will go in the pet chicken pen. It IS very unusual looking and we are also curious as to what it will look like as it grows and we'll be able to see since dd will keep it as a pet bird. However, I don't believe that just because it is not to standards that we have been misled or that the breeder was less than reputable. I believe every breeder of AC's in the U.S. gets these culls. I imagine they don't advertise it. I don't think there should be such a stigma involved with the culls. Isn't that just part of the breeding process? I can't imagine getting any other animal and believing that you will get 100% offspring that meets standards, even with a pedigree. That's just not how it works in my very limited experience. When we put these eggs in the incubator, not for one minute did we expect to hatch out all six, perfectly black chicks, perfect to standards. We assumed there would be culls (pet chickens in our house). I think if we got upset that every one of our AC eggs did not hatch out 100% to standards that would be unrealistic. We are thrilled with the hatch rate (5 of 6) and with the colors of most of the chicks. We consider dd's hatch a great success!

 

[Hatchery Hive]

I agree 100%

 

[hnsmom]

ps...
I could be wrong, but that stripped chick in your photo looks a lot like partridge bantam silky chick...


This is a photo of mine from a year ago...


A pretty bird, here is what they grow up to look like:

Oh, my goodness... that is a beautiful little bird! DD must not see this! lol

 

[cjwaldon]

GFF is not the gold standard. They currenty have the best on the market, but they are not the gold standard. IMO. They have some excellent specimens, and people have purchase excellent speciemens from GFF. However, people have also gotten specimens I would not use to breed. IMO. But, it's a starting point. I'm not trying to diss GFF, just saying we should strive for better.

I acquired my original Ayam Cemani pair directly from Toni-Marie. When I asked about the non-black chicks they were producing, TMA told me they were "land race". Others said my pair weren't pure or I had a fence jumper. I knew right then that it would be a battle trying to convince anyone I was a dedicated breeder if I didn't drop it. Instead I dedided to forge ahead and work with what I was given. When life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. My original pair produced roughly 1/3 of these oddballs. With stringent selection for breeders, their offspring are producing only about 5% off these oddballs. That's right, in only one generation I was able to reduce the occurence of wrong colored chicks dramatically. In addition I've been able to improve the amount of fibromelanosis internally from scant traces (a few dark spots and yellow bones) to fairly consistently gray meat marbled with black and accompanied by black bones, black gizzards, and black connective tissues. I'm also starting to get seom fibromelanosis in the hearts. Of course some of my culls are still way off the mark, but enough of them are showing these traits that I know I'm improving my stock and not just breeding chickens with black feathers.

All this tells me that the breed can be improved no matter your starting point. It's disheartening to see so many posts of people nit picking over white toenails and missing the bigger picture.

If you all want, I'll post pics of two of those off colored chicks. I only have three currently. Two I kept for possibly a project and one was just so pretty in his own right I want to see how he looks when he's a little older. I have no use for him and will probably just give him away to a pet home. He doesn't even qualify as fm.