The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[DCchicken]

Also, Toni's line, and I'm pretty sure GFF's line do not come directly from Indonesia... Because of the importation bans

I could be wrong about this as it has been a while since I asked Toni, but I believe her line came from the Netherlands. There was a Cemani breeder there but recently he had to give up his flock because of life issues.

The only line that has come directly from Indonesia is Cemani Farms. And the paperwork for the breeder that has that line is in question as the eggs may have been illegally imported. She was busted on another site for modifying images. So it's a big question mark for Cemani Farms. It is still illegal to import Ayam Cemani directly form Indonesia. This has not changed.

 

[DCchicken]

So here is a picture a friend sent me that is another "quality" cockerel from Mike in New York:

Just like mine, this is not Ayam Cemani. Even the toe nails on this one are white. Clear is ok as they will grow out (although not ideal). But white is a show-stopper.

But I just can't get beyond the fact that comb and wattles are red. I could see mullberry in an older (18 month or older) roo. But this cockerel in this photo is 5 months old.

At least it carries the GF modifier. That's what makes the ears blue. Everything about this cockerel would disqualify it as Ayam Cemani according to the Dutch Standard.

 

[Chickengirl1304]

I have seen the blue ears before on the cemani. Is this a bad thing?

 

[DCchicken]

I have seen the blue ears before on the cemani. Is this a bad thing?

Yes ears should be black not blue. Blue indicates that they have the GF (gypsy face) modifier that gives the black tone to the face. But if they are truly FM, their skin is black and their ears are black. Blue would indicate white ears that are masked by the GF modifier. So white or blue ears equals not Ayam Cemani. It's in the Dutch standard I listed above:

Head: of medium size. Face – black and smooth. wattles medium, small black earlobes, eyes large and full of expression, dark brown to black with black pupils.

 

[DCchicken]

Yes not every line is perfect. But there is a difference with a line that needs improvement and a line that started as a hybrid such as the Smithsonian Line. If we allow hybrids to be called Ayam Cemani we might as well include any chicken that is hatched. For example: this chicken:



Here is the day old chick of this chicken:


This chick is blacker than the hybrid "Smithsonian Line".

So is this chick be called an Ayam Cemani? No. Because it is a Marans (a Marans with the GF modifier to be exact).

All of the legitimate Ayam Cemani breeders I know have chosen to either follow the Dutch or the Indonesian Standard. The standard calls for very specific traits, the least of which is black skin, comb, and wattles. Anything less is not an Ayam Cemani. To call a hybrid with red combs and wattles is an insult to the Indonesian breeder that created Ayam Cemani.

So I guess any bird with black feathers is an "American Cemani". In that case, people should just save their money and buy an Australorp form any old hatchery and sell them as American Cemani. So here we have it. Any bird with black feathers is an American Cemani.

Why not just expand that to include any black chick hatched in the U.S. as an American Cemani?

And I own Mike's Cemani line knock off line. Where is the proof that Mike's line is anything other than a hybrid. Those of us that know the breeder that sold Mike the chicks know that the breeder to be one of the most respected breeders in the country. He sold chicks to Mike that were half-Cemani, half lavender Leghorn. I and other legitimate Ayam Cemani breeders will take that breeder's word over someone that cannot provide any documentation for importing Ayam Cemani into the country. If you have documentation that proves Mike's story (other than the word of Mike who wants to just as he put it to me "sell chicks to fund the importation of Kadaknath") please post it here. There is no documentation because no documentation ever existed.

I plan on giving eggs from Mike's line for free. So if you think you are going to make money selling chicks from that line, you are out of luck. I am going to remove the motivation and give Mike's line away for FREE. Free eggs for anyone that wants them. Just pay the cost of shipping.

There you go. I just set a new market value for eggs from Mike's "Smithsonian Line". FREE.

 

[DCchicken]

Since @Steadfast wanted to see pictures of a cull Ayam Cemani, here you go. This is one of my pullets in my "cull" pen. This is from my Toni-Marie Astin line. She was culled from my breeding program of that line because she has a gray tongue instead of a black one. However she will be used in my natural breeding program as a broody since the Toni-Marie Astin line are known to be excellent mothers.

 

[Kerstiens]

What age do you cull your chicks? Can you tell if they will have the black comb and wattle at hatch? Should the skin and all toenails be black at hatch as a predictor of an properly correct Cemani? Or is the black mouth/tongue the only real way to be assured of correct color? I guess I am asking what we can expect at hatch; and how long we need to run on a chick that does not have a black mouth before culling? And do you put down your own chicks or always sell them as culls?

Also - I'm curious as to your thoughts on Mike Bean's other line (not the Smithsonian line).

Thanks as always for your thoughts and information ... and hopefully we can all remember that this is a hobby for many of us; and we look for information and education rather than condemnation. I assume that most of us want to do the right thing by the Ayam Cemani breed - until proven otherwise.

 

[DCchicken]

And here is one from my separate (and my own) Birchen color line. This line cannot be considered Ayam Cemani but should be called just a Birchen Fibro. This line also lacks the GF modifier making the comb have too much mulberry in it. Because this cockerel lacks the GF modifier, he will be culled (processed).

 

[DCchicken]

What age do you cull your chicks? Can you tell if they will have the black comb and wattle at hatch? Should the skin and all toenails be black at hatch as a predictor of an properly correct Cemani? Or is the black mouth/tongue the only real way to be assured of correct color? I guess I am asking what we can expect at hatch; and how long we need to run on a chick that does not have a black mouth before culling? And do you put down your own chicks or always sell them as culls?

Also - I'm curious as to your thoughts on Mike Bean's other line (not the Smithsonian line).

Thanks as always for your thoughts and information ... and hopefully we can all remember that this is a hobby for many of us; and we look for information and education rather than condemnation. I assume that most of us want to do the right thing by the Ayam Cemani breed - until proven otherwise.

Ayam Cemani chicks should have black skin, toenails, and mouths at hatch. White toenails should be an automatic cull. Clear toenails should be tagged as they may develop into black. But white toenails indicate incomplete hyperpigmentation or the line is a hybrid. So they should be culled. Note that there is a difference between a black mouth and a black tongue. Even a hybrid can have a black mouth. But only a pure Cemani with FM and the GF modifier will have a black tongue. Even then, you are probably going to have to cull probably 90% or more to get that pure black tongue. Don't be fooled by gray tongues. Gray is not black. The same goes for skin. Gray will grow up to be pinkish as the chick matures. That is the problem I am seeing with my Smithies. They are not Ayam Cemani and never will be.

I don't cull until 4 months of age. As we see if the Smithies as well as any breed that has the GF modifier (see the Marans chick pic posted on the previous page), any chick can be born with a black comb and wattle. You should grow them out to at least breeding age to know how they develop. Then do a test breed, changing pairs to display different combinations.

Personally I don't kill chicks. I don't even process my own meat birds. I have a trusted local farm that processes my culls. However, none of the pullets get processed. The Toni-Marie Astin line are perfect broody hens. So I use mine for incubating, hatching, and rearing in my natural breeding program.

With the exception of my Smithies, I do not and will not sell my culls. The breed has enough problems with people making up stories about how they imported lines and selling hybrids as culls.


I am in the process of importing a new line from Europe that is unrelated to any of the current lines. But I will share more details about that once I have them on my farm and in my own hands.

**Edited by Staff**

 

[DCchicken]

But only a pure Cemani with FM and the GF modifier will have a black tongue. Even then, you are probably going to have to cull probably 90% or more to get that pure black tongue. Don't be fooled by gray tongues. Gray is not black. The same goes for skin. Gray will grow up to be pinkish as the chick matures.

You must start with a perfect Cemani, not a hybrid and then cull 90% to get the black tongue. A perfect Cemani is one that has two copies of the FM gene and the GF modifier. That can only be found in a real Ayam Cemani, Svart Hona, Ogye, etc. And as the chick with gray skin matures, gray will turn to pink and later red.
**Edited by Staff**