The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[DCchicken]

Mikes line are Cemani. In the cemani breed you can at times hatch a completely normal colored bird, and various shades of black as well. Cemanis were created by mixing several breeds together originally. Any chicken with that many crosses is bound to have throwback chicks. Even ggf does not guarantee all black chicks. Mikes line was breed for egg production as he freely shared before I placed my order. This is why not all of his birds are solid black. He told us what we would be getting for what we were paying. You can't pay as little as we did and expect $5000 quality which is what GFF was charging at the time. Don't hate me, just sharing my opinion. Why not breed and cull hard until standards are met like other breeds? Breed the blackest to the blackest, and keep the all black chicks...cull the rest.

Mike's line are not Ayam Cemani. They are a cross. A breeder that had only a single Ayam Cemani pullet (he had lost his roo), mated his hen with a lavender Leghorn. The chicks were sold to Mike in New York. The reason they are such good layers of white eggs is that they are a leghorn/Cemani hybrid. But they will never be Ayam Cemani. They lack the correct collection of genes that make Ayam Cemani all black.

It is theoretically possible that Mike was able to acquire another Ayam Cemani to breed with the chicks that he got from the breeder. But if that were the case, then why does my pair from him still display clear Leghorn traits?

I already have a very good line of Ayam Cemani which I have been breeding and culling to improve them for quite some time. They originated from Toni-Marie Astin. If you scroll up, you will see a picture of one of my culls. I am not saying that Toni-Marie Astin line are perfect. But at least they are real and documented Ayam Cemani.

I also have Svart Hona, both original imports from Ewe Crazy Farms and a roo from Greenfire.


Here is an example of my Svart Hona from Greenfire lines. This is what a true FM breed should look like.

So I am very familiar with FM breeds. Culling is necessary with all of them to maintain the hyperpigmentation. However, the birds I received from Mike as the "Smithsonian Line" are nothing more than hybrids. Calling them Ayam Cemani is deceptive as it implies that they are pure which they are not.

Let me share a little of my research about the origins of Ayam Cemani (and Svart Hona). They were developed using Ayam Kedu which was originally a landrace created using native green junglefow and some other unknown asian chicken breed. Kedu are basically the clear skin version. It is also the name of the region where Ayam Cemani were developed. Kedu carry the FM gene. If you breed enough Kedus together, you will get some that are solid black (Cemani). Breed the blackest ones again and you start to have more and more hatch that are Cemani. There is also a partridge version of the Kedu called the Hsian.

 

[maranfarmer563]

Maybe the unknown Asian cross was tomaru. My tomaru cockerels look surprisingly like cemani.

 

[bluenkimchi]

All I'm going to say is........................................................................

Why do the different lines vary in sizes and shape so much from the native landrace birds of Indonesia? Isn't Ayam Kedu larger birds? So theoretically, shouldn't all the cemani morphs be the same or similar size to it parents? I know there is small bantam like ayam cemani in Indonesia too https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...xploring-the-significance-of-cemani-mutations

 

[Phage]

Maybe the unknown Asian cross was tomaru. My tomaru cockerels look surprisingly like cemani.

That sounds like a good possibility. Tomaru are quite big aren't they?

 

[DCchicken]

Maybe the unknown Asian cross was tomaru. My tomaru cockerels look surprisingly like cemani.

I actually think it was something older. Like a breed that is extinct. Similar to the unknown Asian breed that is the foundation of the American Java, carried to America by traders but is now been breed to the point where it exists no more.

 

[DCchicken]

All I'm going to say is........................................................................

Why do the different lines vary in sizes and shape so much from the native landrace birds of Indonesia? Isn't Ayam Kedu larger birds? So theoretically, shouldn't all the cemani morphs be the same or similar size to it parents? I know there is small bantam like ayam cemani in Indonesia too https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...xploring-the-significance-of-cemani-mutations

You mean like this Kedu:



Neither Ayam Cemani nor Ayam Kedu are bantam. But yes my Kedu are a little stockier in appearance than my Cemani but not by much.

 

[bluenkimchi]

You mean like this Kedu:



Neither Ayam Cemani nor Ayam Kedu are bantam. But yes my Kedu are a little stockier in appearance than my Cemani but not by much.

Yes

But why are TM's line smaller than say GFF and why have both lines shape change so much from the more slender/lanky birds of Indonesia? The cemani of Indonesia still have that oriental game stance, but just a black morph with skin, meat, bones etc. I know Ayam Cemani and Kedu aren't bantam size, I was referring to the link I post above. Look at the #2 post on the first page by the OP of Ayam Sayap Hitam Cemani

I should have not use bantam size, but a smaller bird that is about half the size of the origianl

 

[DCchicken]

Yes

But why are TM's line smaller than say GFF and why have both lines shape change so much from the more slender/lanky birds of Indonesia? The cemani of Indonesia still have that oriental game stance, but just a black morph with skin, meat, bones etc. I know Ayam Cemani and Kedu aren't bantam size, I was referring to the link I post above. Look at the #2 post on the first page by the OP of Ayam Sayap Hitam Cemani

I should have not use bantam size, but a smaller bird that is about half the size of the origianl

I will have to ask Toni-Marie Astin next time I talk to her. But I can tell you that I also have one of her game fowl and my Cemani are about the same size. I know the image below is bad, but you can get the idea. Cemani on the left, Game on the right.



Maybe the German breeders that created the line that GFF sells like larger birds? I know I personally like smaller birds and will probably select for that in some future generation.

 

[bluenkimchi]

I will have to ask Toni-Marie Astin next time I talk to her. But I can tell you that I also have one of her game fowl and my Cemani are about the same size. I know the image below is bad, but you can get the idea. Cemani on the left, Game on the right.



Maybe the German breeders that created the line that GFF sells like larger birds? I know I personally like smaller birds and will probably select for that in some future generation.

Ya, that would be nice to hear what she has to say about her line's size difference. I see, not too small.

I personally would have kept them the same as the native birds, but I guess peoples taste for things are different and there are bound to be changes made to each own liking.

on an other note, can't wait to see what the future standardize American Cemani bird you guys are working on looks like

...............wait are you part of that group project too? maybe spill some beans a bit

 

[Randy2010]

I have both Toni and GFF lines. Two breeding hens per lines and I can see very difference in size and neither to me are bantam size hens. Even my Svart hen is the same size as they are.