The American Cemani Breeders Club...open forum

[miss heny]

Well, if a differently colored bird comes out of an Ameraucana but it doesn't meet the standard, do we call that an Ameraucana? No, we call it an Easter Egger. So there are two sides to that argument.

Also, I have never seen a woolie AC, ever. I think you're thinking of the svart honas, of which I have heard of some woolies popping up.

oh my bad, your probably right I jump between those threads and it sometimes get muddled.

With EEs IMO (and this is my view agree to disagree if you will) if it doesn't breed true it a mutt, but if it does then what is it? It a unrecognized variety of Ameraucana.

 

[WalnutHill]

I am gonna interject here slightly;

His white birds appeared out of a flock what is presumed to be pure, mutations can happen in any breed. I knew one man that bred for 30 years black OEGB and had Lav and White pop up here and there, did that make them not OEGB? No they just had a mutation.

And if one is breeding to said standard then all the photos of the woolies shouldn't be called pure by that statement. Since this breed is landrace breed it will still have genetical variation pop up here and there.

Point taken. But...are Lavender and White accepted colors of OEGB? If so, then no worries, they are still to SOP. If not, they are not SOP, and while they may be of OEGB breeding, they don't meet the definition of OEGB.

Mutations are less common than recessive buried genes coming to light during cross breeding.

If the SOP for Ayam Cemani describes them as a landrace, which expects that random breeding would have happened over a long time of free ranging flocks, then birchen, leakage and other characteristics will be "expected". But Ayam Cemani means Black Chicken. I fully support an SOP that breeds toward that goal while retaining the body type, toe count, comb style, feather type that exists in a large percentage of Ayam Cemani foundation stock.

 

[Pyxis]

Well, if a differently colored bird comes out of an Ameraucana but it doesn't meet the standard, do we call that an Ameraucana? No, we call it an Easter Egger. So there are two sides to that argument.

Also, I have never seen a woolie AC, ever. I think you're thinking of the svart honas, of which I have heard of some woolies popping up.

oh my bad, your probably right I jump between those threads and it sometimes get muddled.

With EEs IMO (and this is my view agree to disagree if you will) if it doesn't breed true it a mutt, but if it does then what is it? It a unrecognized variety of Ameraucana.

I don't really have a view on the EE situation, was just posting that as a counter view Also, the two colors you listed that are popping out of that breeder's OEGB flock, white and lavender (AKA self blue) are both recognized colors of OEGB and are accepted by the APA.

 

[WalnutHill]

oh my bad, your probably right I jump between those threads and it sometimes get muddled.

With EEs IMO (and this is my view agree to disagree if you will) if it doesn't breed true it a mutt, but if it does then what is it? It a unrecognized variety of Ameraucana.

I had a line of feather footed Columbian EEs that bred true for four generations before I got rid of all those roos. Great green egg layers, lovely muffs and beards. But Ams they were not.

 

[miss heny]

Indeed but this breed isn't even recognized in the US I believe in the future breeders will have to break down the breed into Land race and Exhibition lines to preserve the genetics of both. If need be one could easily name the "white mutations" the native country words for white black chicken.

 

[miss heny]

I had a line of feather footed Columbian EEs that bred true for four generations before I got rid of all those roos.  Great green egg layers, lovely muffs and beards.  But Ams they were not.

no they weren't, but if they met the breed standard on build and leg color but not feather color they would be IMO Ams.

 

[Ravynscroft]

Just a bit of a thought to chew on...

True mutations are very, very rare...

Recessive traits can pop up 100 years later even in a closed breeding flock...

Lavender (Self Blue) and some white feather coloring are recessive traits of black...

Barbless feathers (wooly) is a recessive trait... in most breeds it is considered a defect/DQ... some are breeding them as a 'Project'... as a Project, they are not yet acceptable as part of that breed, but if enough people are interested in it and work on it, then one day they might be accepted... that takes lots of time and dedication and work... but they should always be described as project until proven otherwise...

Blue egg gene is not a recessive trait... it is dominant... thus it cannot just 'appear' nor mutate... it is a result of a specific retrovirus found in only a couple specific places...

Just some thoughts to think on...

 

[miss heny]

Just a bit of a thought to chew on...

True mutations are very, very rare...

Recessive traits can pop up 100 years later even in a closed breeding flock...

Lavender (Self Blue) and some white feather coloring are recessive traits of black...

Barbless feathers (wooly) is a recessive trait... in most breeds it is considered a defect/DQ... some are breeding them as a 'Project'... as a Project, they are not yet acceptable as part of that breed, but if enough people are interested in it and work on it, then one day they might be accepted... that takes lots of time and dedication and work... but they should always be described as project until proven otherwise...

Blue egg gene is not a recessive trait... it is dominant... thus it cannot just 'appear' nor mutate... it is a result of a specific retrovirus found in only a couple specific places...

Just some thoughts to think on...

thank you

 

[dboranch]

Quote:

Well, if a differently colored bird comes out of an Ameraucana but it doesn't meet the standard, do we call that an Ameraucana? No, we call it an Easter Egger....

An Easter Egger is for the most part a mutt chicken that lays blue eggs. I also raise show quality Ameraucanas in Blue, Black and Splash (BBS). You can mix them all together in a pen and they will still breed true. Here is a chart shows what you get depending on what what you breed together.



The blue and black colors are accepted recognized colors that 'meet the standards' according to APA although splash is not recognized (at least for now). That doesn't make it an Easter Egger. It is still a pure Ameraucana and if I breed it back with a blue or black, the blue offspring are still considered Ameraucanas that breed true and the APA accept them as pure and they can be shown as such.

Quote:

...But please don't keep calling them Ayam Cemani. The very definition of the Ayam Cemani breed is that they are all black. Not any other color. Just black. All black. Or did I miss something? Are we now only focused on skin and internal fibro saturation, no so much feathers color? I better go read the SOP again...

I know that some of you may think I am going off topic again, but I am just using my Ameraucanas in this example (but the same goes for my BBS Orpingtons, BBS Marans and BBS Barnevelders too) therefore I still consider my all white feathered AC to be pure even though they may not be black. However, if you only want people to talk about strictly 'black' feathered Ayam Cemani birds on this thread, then you have made it clear.

 

[Pyxis]

I think why people have a problem with it is because that in every country that does have a standard for these birds, anything other than black is a DQ. In Ameraucanas, I'm sure you could show a splash one in all other varieties or something and they would just judge it to the Am standard and though it couldn't win overall it could win in the all other varieties category. An ayam cemani with any white on it isn't going to have that same thing happen. It's going to be DQed.

Also, the breed's entire main trait is that it is supposed to be all black - meat, bones, organs, skin, and yes, feathers. Your white ones of course do not align with that. Do I think that makes them not pure? Not necessarily. Do I think that means they don't meet the standard? Yes, definitely.

Another good point that was brought up is about your bird that lays blue eggs. As was mentioned last night, that does not happen organically on its own. That trait is a direct result of a retrovirus found only in certain parts of the world that was introduced to certain breeds accidentally. And it is dominant, so it cannot hide like a recessive trait like recessive white could. So that hen, at least, comes from at least one parent that was definitely crossed out to another breed at some time. I won't get into the whole 'once it looks pure and breeds true is it pure' thing but that one at least you know was crossed out at one time and her eggs don't meet the standard so technically neither does she. You did say that your source is at the 'cutting edge' of breeds and that looks to be true - they seem to get breeds as soon as GFF gets them, work with them for maybe a year or two, and then move on to other new breeds (at least going by their posts here on the forums and their website) so isn't it possible with all those breeds an oops happened once and a rooster or hen ended up on the wrong side of a fence? Heck, it could have even happened at GFF, doesn't even necessarily mean it happened where you got your birds from. That would explain where the blue egg is coming from, at least. First gen cross outs like that can be darker than you think. This chick, for example, was a first gen cross out to a cream legbar:

Now, if I didn't know any better, I could easily believe that it was a purebred AC, albeit a cull because of the orange on the toes, and that actually darkens up with age. Now, that bird would carry the blue egg gene and lay blue eggs. Breed her one more generation with the ACs and her chicks might easily be all black.

Again, I don't mind at all if you post your birds here, they are very pretty and interesting, I am just offering some thoughts because the person who had first replied to you has not responded and I'm trying to post where I think they're coming from for you. I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm just trying to give you answers because they have not. I didn't even want to get involved with this when it first came up because I knew it wasn't going to be pretty, but I think you deserve answers to your questions so I'm trying to give them.