The American Paint Silkie

[poultch]

Quote:
Here is where I think a potential problem with paints could be amplified breeding two solid color F1's together, pigment holes. A breeder did breed two solid whites from a paint breeding, they hatched with all pink skin and now that they are maturing are showing very red combs. The skin darkened over time but the combs remained red.

The paints in the US have not moved far away from the genetics of the fowl that was used to bring in Dom white. Its going to take a few generations to achieve more consistency in skin color, eye color, type, and paint color.

did the breeder of these white skinned white F2's breed them back to a black silkie?

 

[poultch]

Quote:
was the white american female that he was crossed to dominant white?

Has this male been bred to blue or splash silkies? (with no paint ancestry)

 

[SilverSilkie]

Quote:
Just a question out of curiosity, maybe I mist it somewhere in this large post, but did anyone think of Smokey (I^s/I^s or I/I^s) instead of Blue (Bl/bl+) since Smokey is a mutation od Dominant White (I/I or I/i+). Smokey would be more logic than Blue for this baby since it is a descendant of paint !?

 

[Sonoran Silkies]

Welcome poultch! I know from The Coop that you really know your genetics! Far more than most of us

Any direction you can provide on figuring out paints will be awesome!

 

[robin416]

Quote:
Just a question out of curiosity, maybe I mist it somewhere in this large post, but did anyone think of Smokey (I^s/I^s or I/I^s) instead of Blue (Bl/bl+) since Smokey is a mutation od Dominant White (I/I or I/i+). Smokey would be more logic than Blue for this baby since it is a descendant of paint !?

Check my post the page before, you'll see the reference you're making to the smoky color. But that male pictured is not Dom white, it is recessive. A suggestion was made by another breeder that it might be a heavy dose of the silver gene. Considering that my coop is full of silver gene whites I think she might be on to something in that regard.

 

[SilverSilkie]

Do you intend as also in this hen ?

 

[robin416]

No, I was fiddling around with the color when it began to show up in smaller doses in my birds. With repeated breedings this is what I ended up with. No one seemed to know what it was. He is true recessive white, that has been tested. When these chicks hatch they are a deep gray color and always male.

The young bird in the first pic is out of my paints. Again, I have the silver gene in my coop and with comparing it to my white male I confirmed the shading is the same. So chances are high this is a silver gene white out of paints. I don't know if this one will be male or not because it came from the paint pen.

 

[SilverSilkie]

Aha, than I was not thinking in the same direction.
I changed all my Silkies from gold based to Silver based. Also the recessive whites. When these are born have mostley gray pluff. The recessive white based on gold have a golden pluff.

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[poultch]

Thanks Sonoran, I just like to learn and I learn best from pulling things apart and then re-building them. Maybe this is a good approach to take with the paints.

First things first, test at the dominant white locus , as you have started with your mating to dun. But I see in your signature that you have kahki, these birds would be even better as it would only give the outcome of I^D/?. The ratios of segregates would tell you huge amounts. and dependent on these results you look at the next step

then look closely at the black (and maybe white) segregates from paint breedings. (this is where I do differ from most others)
Mate them to other diluters that are and aren't at dominant white locus. Blue and sex linked choc would give you some clues in the F1. Lav would be another but one would have to wait and be patient and dilegent by creating the classical F2 test.

IMO by doing this you may well even see differences in 'paint expression' from the differing diluters (that aren't dom white) in that blue leaks in much the same way dom white does (also dun maybe?), yet not lav and sex linked choc, even down to the mode/action that these alleles and gene pairs cause at a cellular level, therefore one may see consistencies at the phenotypical level make more sense.
This helps explain (IMO) Sigi's observation of the loud expression of the splash paint and a poster in this threads experience from inreasing spots from mating paint to paints
Therefore in th flip side in the range of diluters..
... would a lav paint be lav with darker lav spots? or black spots,, if the latter option/possiblity is the case, back to the cellular level..and extralopalting/hypothizing further would a 'I^P/I^P', c/c bird be the ulimate black and white paint? (yes, in that I mean a recessive white paint). Just some thoughts.

But back to dominant white, it's clear that it has involvements and I/i+ birds have the paint phenotype along with I/I^P birds but rather than causing it(paint pheno), it (dom white) allows for 'paints' expression (ie visible in pheno) and adding to the headaches as they are phenotypically the same as an I/I^P and an I/i+.

So Sonoran I dont argue with your proposed order of dominance further back rather that a I^P/i+ - with no other diluters is esstentially black with black spots..you need a diluter to see 'I^P''s expression. This in turn would support Sigis statement at the coop in the earlier paint dicussion thread that: black to black = black it doesn't mean that they aren't I^P!

It all just hangs on if there is I^P, I reckon it's there, it just needs to be teased out from I.
Kudos and reward would be there for those that are willing to fill in the gaps in the genetic roadmap

 

[robin416]

Quote:
Here is where I think a potential problem with paints could be amplified breeding two solid color F1's together, pigment holes. A breeder did breed two solid whites from a paint breeding, they hatched with all pink skin and now that they are maturing are showing very red combs. The skin darkened over time but the combs remained red.

The paints in the US have not moved far away from the genetics of the fowl that was used to bring in Dom white. Its going to take a few generations to achieve more consistency in skin color, eye color, type, and paint color.

did the breeder of these white skinned white F2's breed them back to a black silkie?

Sorry, I missed your question. No she has not, they are only a couple of months old at this point. I'm not even sure she kept them to try breeding back to see what the results would be. For most of us space is an issue which will complicate some of the answers we need.