The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[dcrumrin]

I have a pair of White booted bantams that are known to be recessive white homozygous, but the underlying colors are unknown. In many white booted, the underlying color is mille fleur, but I don't know that. In hatching out chicks I've discovered that what I assume to be males are expressing red leakage, mostly in head and neck. The old timers would tell you that the way to perfect the white is by a lot of hatching and hard culling, using only pure whites to pure whites. Will this eradicate the genes involved over time? Are there other ways to influence the recessive white to eliminate the leakage? What about mating to pure E based blacks that have Melanotic? The option I've thought about is the addition of Dominant White from Golden Necks. I fear I may be introducing more problems if I do that. There is also a possibility of using S/S Co/Co based birds to influence the white. I have not been able to find any information from white breeders to find if this problem is common. I have a possibly linked issue with slate shanks where the standard calls for white. The male is light shanked (could be heterozygous for Id melanin) and the hen is slate (probably id+) I don't want to do anything to create more leg problems than I have to. (beaks are pure white) I've started thinking about breeding plans and have about a dozen chicks but can't tell their full phenotypes yet.

Obviously, there needs to be test mating done to clarify what is underneath the recessive white. I just haven't done it since I recently got the birds and have been hatching every egg I can. I am assuming that the best choices for testing would be to a mille fleur or a black since those are more or less the birds I have without extra genetics to confuse things. If I had e+ wildtype birds to use I would. But even then, it wouldn't show modifying genes that are recessive, or unknown without several generations.

 

[rc50]

Brown Sussex.. use what to what to have Brown Sussex... ?

 

[dcrumrin]

I thought of that, the only bird I could possibly get would be a white columbian. Not sure if the Co gene would also help, some people say it would. I would rather not introduce a new breed since this line is well typed for the breed. I may have to. I guess the question I'm wondering is if there are other, unknown? pheomelanin influencers that may be hidden in the birds and need to be selected for, or whether it may be a less powerful recessive white allele that is causing the leakage. This seems to be an issue with others with that line and wondering if it's just a long term project to eradicate it, or if it a genetic issue that is always going to be there. There is (supposedly) a recessive white in Japanese longtails that allows for random red spotting. Brian Reeder calls it RSY^D (Red Shouldered Yokahama Diluter). If I did use a silver bird, I believe using a male over a recessive white female would be the best choice. I would rather know that there is a genetic possibility of a modifier gene that could make the red leakage go away, or perhaps if this is pheomelanin enhancing gene to work to get rid of.

Brian Reeder talks a lot about white chickens and has good information at

https://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/search?q=recessive+white

According to Reeder, recessive white should cover both pheomelanin and eumelanin. Other genetics people suggest that the main form of recessive white (c) can leak pheomelanin, especially in males. His writings say that there are Autosomal Pheomelanin Inhibitor genes, that are in very clean silver-based chickens. He calls it Aph^I. I am assuming that these genes would also help clean up red leakage in recessive white birds and may be the reason that some others talk about red leakage in recessive white birds, i.e. not having that gene. If that is true, then that gene must be in these recessive whites somewhere which show complete white in some birds and needs selection, Otherwise it could possibly be added through crosses to a clean white silver bird. Also, there is a discussion there that the Columbian gene (Co) may have some effect in helping make for clean white birds, at least in silver based varieties.

 

[nicalandia]

Brown Sussex are just Wildtype e+ like Welsummers.

 

[rc50]

Thought so they do look similar.. thanks

 

[dcrumrin]

Brown Sussex are just Wildtype e+ like Welsummers.

According to what you know/have heard, is recessive white leaking red common?

 

[nicalandia]

According to what you know/have heard, is recessive white leaking red common?

Is very uncommon

 

[dcrumrin]

Is very uncommon

That is my previous experience, although I have seen many saying that recessive white leaks red quoting Grant Brereton. I have to do research on that. It appears that there are several recessive whites, known and unknown, and that some may be less effective in creating pure white than others, There are some genetic testers that will confirm recessive white with DNA testing, although I am sure it wouldn't distinguish between different alleles, might be worth it.

 

[nicalandia]

It appears that there are several recessive whites, known and unknown, and that some may be less effective in creating pure white than others

There are miltiple allelic mutations found on the recessive white c allele and at least one sequenced non-c recessive white based on the mottling allele.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

Hey, @nicalandia! I've been dealing with dark, dark Blues that look Black in my silkied Cochin bantams a bit this year. I thought I knew what I was dealing with with that because some of my Blues from last year are on the darker side for Blue, but then one of my 'Black' hens produced Blue chicks with a Black rooster, and on closer inspection I realized that her down is slatey blue-gray instead of the sort of charcoal gray down of the Blacks. She is black enough that she even iridesces in sunlight like a Black bird would, but looking at her chick down, she did look Blue as a baby.

Researching about dark, dark Blues, I came across a theorized allele of blue, bl^d, that is believed to produce these dark Blue birds that look Black. Do you know anything about this allele and could this truly be what causes this, or are there more likely other genes at play that darken plumage coloring and these birds are just normal Bl/bl+ otherwise? I'd ideally like to breed this trait out of my Cochins so that the Blues and Blacks are distinct in them, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to proceed.

This is the 'Black' hen mentioned above.

And her confusing chick down; I labelled her as Black because she was darker than the definitely Blue chicks and when she feathered in she looked Black as well, but you can see I wasn't 100% convinced when I labeled the picture. She's produced several chicks like this as well with a rooster who is definitely Black based on his down and chick down color. So far, the chicks she's produced like this have feathered out to be indistinguishable from the normal Black chicks.

Normal Blue and Black chicks from the same hatch as her, just for the comparison. One thing I've noticed with these chicks is that the Blues tend to have a dark wash on their legs that the Blacks lack, and the chicks that are in between like the hen above have also had this wash on the legs. They all grow up to have proper yellow legs like they should for the breed, though.

And normal Blue and Black hens to compare as well:

Sorry for the picture overload, just trying to include as much detail as possible.