The "Ask Anything" to Nicalandia Thread

[Nigel27]

I don't believe so. Legbars, in my experience, are quite prolific layers, so at the very least I don't think they carry any genes for reduced production even if there was some kind of linkage there. Birds with fibro tend to be fancier breeds not bred for production, so any kind of connection there to lower productivity is likely just coincidental. But I don't know this for a fact, of course, I'm only basing this on what I have or haven't heard about the genes.

Thank you. The cock is legbar with red leakage so I'm assuming it has some isa or RIR but a great laying breed. The hens I have, some are fibro and some are easter eggers, don't lay very consistently. So I'm just wondering what egg production genes are dominant. Will these offspring have the potential to lay like a legbar hybrid or mutt potential (anything possible)?

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

This is merely my understanding of the subject, so take it with a grain of salt.

Egg production is studied, but near as I can tell not down to the individual genes involved. There's a lot of variability in egg production level, which indicates that there are multiple genes that control it. There are also other genes that may indirectly impact egg production, such as those that control how the bird reacts to hormonal triggers like those that cause broodying and molting, two things that generally cause a slowing or stop to egg laying while occurring. And, of course, there are external causes that may decrease egg laying, such as injury, disease, or poor diet.

A polygenic trait, one controlled by multiple genes, will tend toward landing somewhere in the middle of the parents' expression of said trait, especially if there are many genes that control that trait. We see this in things like body type; breeding two birds with vastly different body-types to one another, like a big, meaty breed to a scrawny, egg-layer-type breed, generally produces something in between, not as big as the larger parent but not as small as the smaller parent, and egg laying rate of the offspring also usually falls in the middle of the parent breeds.

Keeping all that in mind, and assuming that external causes are not a factor here, I would expect that a male out of breeds known for higher production bred to hens that do not produce well would make offspring that land somewhere in the middle, producing more eggs than their mothers but less than the females from their father's side. It's well documented that egg production can be bred for, so, if nothing else, picking your best layers and crossing them back to males from good egg laying lines should improve your flock's egg production over time.

I don't think I can give you any more definite answer than that, but maybe others will chime in who can.

 

[dheltzel]

Hello, I'm upping my egg production by putting a legbar over my mixed flock and hatching the eggs. I'm wondering if low egg production is linked to blue egg genes or fibromel genes?

High production is the interplay of many genes. It can often be that emphasizing one trait has an unintended, but direct, effect on another trait. A perfect example is breeding Marans for dark egg color. I don't care much about egg production on that line, so I only select the darkest eggs, late in the season, for the following year's breeders. As a result, they don't lay nearly as many eggs as my other dark egg layers, the Welbars. With the Marans, it is all about maintaining egg color. It is well accepted that frequent laying reduces the darkness in the eggs, and I definitely see that. Welbar eggs lighten noticably, Marans keep their color much better. Even Legbar eggs that have a greenish tinge with the pullets, turn bright blue after a few weeks of heavy laying.
Many high production lines have traits we might consider defects, not because there is an actual genetic linkage, but those traits are ignored while selecting for ever higher production. If you select Legbars exclusively for high production, you are likely to see poorer cresting and color, greener eggs, even heightened aggression (esp in the males). Every breeder makes their own judgements about what traits are most important.
It is no wonder that hatchery Copper Marans lay pale eggs compared to the lines kept by many breeders. In the hatchery business, any egg that is not laid is income never realized. They MUST breed for high production to stay in business. That is not the fault of the hatchery employees, it is just economic reality.
For the highest production, buy pullet chicks from a hatchery, then cross them with cocks that have the other traits you like. Hybrid vigor is working for you and the F1 chicks should be as good as their mothers, but you can pick up any dominant traits from the cock, like rosecombs, beard, muffs, white skin, etc.

 

[NagemTX]

I think this bantam Ameraucana pullet is expressing blue and lavender.

Humm sorry if this is a dubble post or something..... it was in the reply box when this tread loaded and I figured it didn't post when I sent it last time.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I didn't see it before, so I think it must not have posted.

Not sure if you were looking for opinions or not, but lavender dilutes gold to a pretty pale yellow color, so I don't think she's expressing lavender based on the gold showing in her neck and on her head. I'm not sure how it would react with both blue and lavender, to be fair, so I could definitely be wrong on that. But I would think that color would be paler still as a result of two dilutions. She's very pretty either way!

 

[NagemTX]

I didn't see it before, so I think it must not have posted.

Not sure if you were looking for opinions or not, but lavender dilutes gold to a pretty pale yellow color, so I don't think she's expressing lavender based on the gold showing in her neck and on her head. I'm not sure how it would react with both blue and lavender, to be fair, so I could definitely be wrong on that. But I would think that color would be paler still as a result of two dilutions. She's very pretty either way!

I was looking for opinions. From another discussion and some pictures it would seam lavender and blue give feathers like what she has in her tail. Again I'm not sure the discussion was on the chicken color genetics FB group. I have not posted her picture there because of the rudeness of the people that believe them selves to be the experts. I trust the opinions of those on here with experience more than there.

I can see that if the red/gold in the hackle is not diluted that it might not be lavender w/ the blue. I wonder what would cause that weirdness in her tail.

 

[pipdzipdnreadytogo]

I do see what you're talking about in her tail. I don't have any personal experience with crossing Blues and Lavenders, so I'm honestly not sure on that.

 

[Finnie]

I think this bantam Ameraucana pullet is expressing blue and lavender.

The way I understand it is that if both dilution genes are present, the darker one is a moot point because the lighter one has already diluted the color more. So you wouldn’t really be able to see the “blue” on a lavender bird. So I think yours is just blue. There may be something else going on to make it look different than normal blues. But I don’t know enough to say what.

 

[NagemTX]

The way I understand it is that if both dilution genes are present, the darker one is a moot point because the lighter one has already diluted the color more. So you wouldn’t really be able to see the “blue” on a lavender bird. So I think yours is just blue. There may be something else going on to make it look different than normal blues. But I don’t know enough to say what.

Some have said it's just a bad blue. That its pretty hard to get them even in coloring. So yeah I agree it's not the dreaded bluvender.

 

[ArthedainIV]

@dheltzel I would love your opinion on the cream legbar Sexlinked Silver vs Gold debate. I have always held the belief of gold myself but recently have doubts.

Starting with Males - A double silver gene will remove the red from the bird. Even at the Bow and shoulders where is it most prominent.

The female on the other hand holds its prominent red in her breast which is mostly unaffected.

If we assume e+ and autosomal red are potentially one in the same (I know that is a big assumption but hold with me) does that make the only difference between the male and female being DF Double Factor Silver?

Due to the double factor the female retains the breast and the male does not retain his wing. (I assume some threshold of pheomelanin levels is involved as well, considering a male has more across his body and the female has it all in a concentrated area)

The threshold, and all of the trouble CL lines have with red enhancers, Melanizers and crele vs cream debates made me consider that silver with red enhancers may be the better choice for breeders who desire to not have to split breed proper males and females.

A silver male, with Mahogony and the cream gene will show cream coloration.

Now for the barring- the barring will likely make this hint of cream color appear silver since it is already so light. However, the brassy duckwing bow/shoulder would remain present like we see on birds currently. The mahogany also would have a Colombian affect to the back, pushing the black away. Assumingely to the hackles and saddle. This is where the black in the barring pattern that is most often missing is lost since it requires Mh. This could also help some of the stray white feathers in the tail.(or could be the cause of them)

Something that stood out to me was your comment of cream turning the female grey from your experience. But the silver gene also does this and makes way for cream with Mh involved.

The for the female, the Mh will add some tint to the hackles however not much at all, but will add a small amount of black. It would also enhance red/brown stippling as is called for and prevent the breast from turning orange.

It seems like this take would make pure breeding the line more realistic but fit the genotype/phenotype that already exists.

I feel like punnets comment of silver and cream being indistinguishable is relevant here, but retaining the red duckwing, the shift in back color, and the stippling in the females could be the small differences noted in the two other than of course the added crest.

I’d love to know your thoughts!