The Bessemer Project

[Lovely Emily]

Sure, I will tell you all I know. First, the two in the picture are actually very different (Duck ABC's, they are unrelated). The Drake is sorta the regular BO, a little larger and off-standard, but pretty normal (a little heavy in the keel, too) He is roughly 10 pounds. The Duck has a more erect posture, tighter feathering, and is about 4 pounds lighter than him (poor girl ) She, I would assume, is either the fruit of years of obviously non-standard breeding, or she has some recent Runner blood. She's also got the long-ish facial profile. She doesn't lay well, though. But she's laying a big, pearly white egg every day, (then they both engorge themselves with it - I have to get up pretty early to get her egg before she does), although she only starting laying 2 weeks ago.
Now, the specific goal is to try and end up with a Dual-Purposed-size, brooding duck. Ducks are notorious for being neglegent mothers, bu, really, nobody's seems to have ever bred for broodiness in ducks. So I will be culling very heavily for that. Breeding ducks is actually much easier than breeding new chickens. There are lots of aspects and variables you have to worry about in chickens... I guess that's why there's around 900 breeds of chickens and only around 75 breeds of mallard! I don't have to worry about egg-color, or earlobes, or tail posture, or anything like that. It's really easy.

 

[Lovely Emily]

You have buff ducks. Nothing more nothing less.

For now. I will have more than buff ducks soon. Everyone who's bred Buffs for a few generations has culled ducks with bowties (like the hen in my picture), but those are ducks with the genetic beginnings for a bib. No good for showing, mind you.

 

[Sweetandsour]

This project will be interesting

 

[easttxchick]

Sure, I will tell you all I know. First, the two in the picture are actually very different (Duck ABC's, they are unrelated). The Drake is sorta the regular BO, a little larger and off-standard, but pretty normal (a little heavy in the keel, too) He is roughly 10 pounds. The Duck has a more erect posture, tighter feathering, and is about 4 pounds lighter than him (poor girl ) She, I would assume, is either the fruit of years of obviously non-standard breeding, or she has some recent Runner blood. She's also got the long-ish facial profile. She doesn't lay well, though. But she's laying a big, pearly white egg every day, (then they both engorge themselves with it - I have to get up pretty early to get her egg before she does), although she only starting laying 2 weeks ago.
Now, the specific goal is to try and end up with a Dual-Purposed-size, brooding duck. Ducks are notorious for being neglegent mothers, bu, really, nobody's seems to have ever bred for broodiness in ducks. So I will be culling very heavily for that. Breeding ducks is actually much easier than breeding new chickens. There are lots of aspects and variables you have to worry about in chickens... I guess that's why there's around 900 breeds of chickens and only around 75 breeds of mallard! I don't have to worry about egg-color, or earlobes, or tail posture, or anything like that. It's really easy.

I guess the basis of my frustration with some of these projects is this-when there are so many existing breeds and varieties that need work, why build another one?
Also, the words "culling heavily" always bother me. I have yet to figure out what that really means and probably DON'T want to know. You seem quite young so I hope you understand that in order to build a new breed, you will need a lot of room, feed, pens, time, patience, etc. Also be prepared to invest a large sum of money into a GOOD incubator.
I'm not quite sure how you breed broodiness into a duck. Ducks are not innately broody so I'm not sure where you would pull that from.
Lastly, in order to build a new breed, you want to start with ducks of whatever breeds you are crossing, that are true to the Standard of Perfection. I see that you say your drake is larger and off-standard-not the stock you want to start with. If you want to truly build a new breed, start with the best and work from there.
If you want a REAL challenge, try perfecting the color/type in a Snowy Call or a Gray Call-terribly difficult and frustrating, but a HUGE challenge.

 

[Miss Lydia]

I guess the basis of my frustration with some of these projects is this-when there are so many existing breeds and varieties that need work, why build another one?
Also, the words "culling heavily" always bother me. I have yet to figure out what that really means and probably DON'T want to know. You seem quite young so I hope you understand that in order to build a new breed, you will need a lot of room, feed, pens, time, patience, etc. Also be prepared to invest a large sum of money into a GOOD incubator.
I'm not quite sure how you breed broodiness into a duck. Ducks are not innately broody so I'm not sure where you would pull that from.
Lastly, in order to build a new breed, you want to start with ducks of whatever breeds you are crossing, that are true to the Standard of Perfection. I see that you say your drake is larger and off-standard-not the stock you want to start with. If you want to truly build a new breed, start with the best and work from there.
If you want a REAL challenge, try perfecting the color/type in a Snowy Call or a Gray Call-terribly difficult and frustrating, but a HUGE challenge.

I just want to say glad to see you back easttxchick, I missed you.

 

[easttxchick]

I just want to say glad to see you back easttxchick, I missed you.

Hi Miss Lydia! My ducks have been keeping me hopping!
Missed visiting with you, too! Do you have FB? I'm over there quite a bit chatting with duck people.

 

[m.kitchengirl]

Can I ask - without stirring the pot, or beginning this thread down the same path previous Bessemer threads have found themselves - how breeding 2 Buffs that do not meet the Buff standard makes Bessemers?
I really am asking from a place without judgement, a place of interest. How many generations before these ducks are not just poorly bred Buffs?
Also, if these ducks will look pretty much like Buffs, and be bred for similar reasons (My Buff would brood & raise a golf ball if I would let her. She hissed at me over her first egg in the nest. She is also a fantastic layer...) won't it cause a fair amount of confusion - having to explain why your ducks aren't just Buffs with bibs? Would it maybe make more sense to just breed bibbed Buffs? I have a feeling lots of people would love those, and it would - maybe - cause a little less consternation?

Again, I am not coming from a negative place, I just would like to understand the breeding process better, and since you're starting from the ground up, this may be the best place to ask these questions.

 

[Lovely Emily]

Can I ask - without stirring the pot, or beginning this thread down the same path previous Bessemer threads have found themselves - how breeding 2 Buffs that do not meet the Buff standard makes Bessemers?
I really am asking from a place without judgement, a place of interest. How many generations before these ducks are not just poorly bred Buffs?
Also, if these ducks will look pretty much like Buffs, and be bred for similar reasons (My Buff would brood & raise a golf ball if I would let her. She hissed at me over her first egg in the nest. She is also a fantastic layer...) won't it cause a fair amount of confusion - having to explain why your ducks aren't just Buffs with bibs? Would it maybe make more sense to just breed bibbed Buffs? I have a feeling lots of people would love those, and it would - maybe - cause a little less consternation?

Again, I am not coming from a negative place, I just would like to understand the breeding process better, and since you're starting from the ground up, this may be the best place to ask these questions.

I cannot tell you how long it will take. All Buffs, Khakis, Self-colored (except white); well, actually every variety that carries the Dusky gene (except Harlies) have the potential to spawn bibs. See the female in my picture? On her neck, you will see the bowtie. This can become a small bib in a few generations. It may not, but usually white spreads rapidly on self birds. Bowties on Duskies can either mean Neckring (meaning the dusky gene is being replaced by the mallard gene) or Bib (meaning the bowtie is spreading over the dusky pattern). However, there is no gage as to how long it takes to spread into a bib. Also, it may spread into other patterns, such as Pied, or Pencilled, in which I would cull those birds and continue along with the bibbed ones. So, it may take two years, or it may take 15. I really can only tell you how long it takes when I'm done. One of the reasons I am breeding these in the direction of a new breed is that I won't be confined by a currently existing standard. Which means that while we are working on the project, we can come to a specific goal, and we have, and breed for it in type. Type has alot to do with the functions of a breed. It also has alot to do with it's performance (say, broodiness and foraging ability). We want a medium-sized duck that has a similar type to flying wild Mallards (although large enough they don't fly). Orpis, as I understand it, are more diagonal and upright when in good type. I am trying to get the breed to be built very much like an oversized mallard. This will take the most time out of the project - getting the type right. I figure the closer the breed is to wildtype, the better chance it will have of achieving the goals; Broodiness, Foraging ability, hardiness, not too scrawny to eat, etc. I am not sure, if the goal is achieved correctly, if there will be confusion on this breed.

 

[Lovely Emily]

I guess the basis of my frustration with some of these projects is this-when there are so many existing breeds and varieties that need work, why build another one?
Also, the words "culling heavily" always bother me. I have yet to figure out what that really means and probably DON'T want to know. You seem quite young so I hope you understand that in order to build a new breed, you will need a lot of room, feed, pens, time, patience, etc. Also be prepared to invest a large sum of money into a GOOD incubator.
I'm not quite sure how you breed broodiness into a duck. Ducks are not innately broody so I'm not sure where you would pull that from.
Lastly, in order to build a new breed, you want to start with ducks of whatever breeds you are crossing, that are true to the Standard of Perfection. I see that you say your drake is larger and off-standard-not the stock you want to start with. If you want to truly build a new breed, start with the best and work from there.
If you want a REAL challenge, try perfecting the color/type in a Snowy Call or a Gray Call-terribly difficult and frustrating, but a HUGE challenge.

I probably should have clarified. I meant the genetic aspect of breeding ducks. Breeding ducks is just as hard as breeding chickens. Actually, it's harder to breed ducks than chickens. Considering balance (need a pond or trough or at least a deep kiddie pool), delicacy (eggs need to be sprinkled with water while being brooded), prostration (dead drakes), on top of the usual hazards of hemorhages, prolapse, etc.

Culling heavily just simply means that it is one of the first traits that are considered when culling stock.

To tell you the truth, I'm not so sre exactly how well the broodiness trait is going to come out. I know how to breed for it (by knowing my stock very well before I cull the less-broody specimens), but I am not sure if I can get to a point where they are managably broody (like a chicken). Even the broodiest of all the worlds domesticated true ducks, the Wild Mallard, cannot be moved. So I am not sure if it is possible to breed exemplary to the wild ability. I will try to get it at least to the point where they reproduce themselves very smoothly. If it's impossible to get them to be box-broodies like chickens, then I suppose I will have to be content with that.

I do have alot of space. I also have some excellent incubators. Not what you meant though. I am using the ducks themselves, with the backup of a small army of broody semi-bantam hens, with another backup of an artificial incubator. Since I am breeding for broodiness, it would be sort of hypocritical of me not to know the broodiness of my birds.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that I should start with standard stock. What is the point of starting with stock bred to a specific standard if your goal is to breed away from that standard anyway?

 

[easttxchick]

I probably should have clarified. I meant the genetic aspect of breeding ducks. Breeding ducks is just as hard as breeding chickens. Actually, it's harder to breed ducks than chickens. Considering balance (need a pond or trough or at least a deep kiddie pool), delicacy (eggs need to be sprinkled with water while being brooded), prostration (dead drakes), on top of the usual hazards of hemorhages, prolapse, etc.

Culling heavily just simply means that it is one of the first traits that are considered when culling stock.

To tell you the truth, I'm not so sre exactly how well the broodiness trait is going to come out. I know how to breed for it (by knowing my stock very well before I cull the less-broody specimens), but I am not sure if I can get to a point where they are managably broody (like a chicken). Even the broodiest of all the worlds domesticated true ducks, the Wild Mallard, cannot be moved. So I am not sure if it is possible to breed exemplary to the wild ability. I will try to get it at least to the point where they reproduce themselves very smoothly. If it's impossible to get them to be box-broodies like chickens, then I suppose I will have to be content with that.

I do have alot of space. I also have some excellent incubators. Not what you meant though. I am using the ducks themselves, with the backup of a small army of broody semi-bantam hens, with another backup of an artificial incubator. Since I am breeding for broodiness, it would be sort of hypocritical of me not to know the broodiness of my birds.

And I am not sure what you mean when you say that I should start with standard stock. What is the point of starting with stock bred to a specific standard if your goal is to breed away from that standard anyway?

Quote:

Sure, I will tell you all I know. First, the two in the picture are actually very different (Duck ABC's, they are unrelated). The Drake is, a little larger sorta the regular BOand off-standard, but pretty normal (a little heavy in the keel, too) He is roughly 10 pounds. The Duck has a more erect posture, tighter feathering, and is about 4 pounds lighter than him (poor girl ) She, I would assume, is either the fruit of years of obviously non-standard breeding, or she has some recent Runner blood. She's also got the long-ish facial profile. She doesn't lay well, though. But she's laying a big, pearly white egg every day, (then they both engorge themselves with it - I have to get up pretty early to get her egg before she does), although she only starting laying 2 weeks ago.
Now, the specific goal is to try and end up with a Dual-Purposed-size, brooding duck. Ducks are notorious for being neglegent mothers, bu, really, nobody's seems to have ever bred for broodiness in ducks. So I will be culling very heavily for that. Breeding ducks is actually much easier than breeding new chickens. There are lots of aspects and variables you have to worry about in chickens... I guess that's why there's around 900 breeds of chickens and only around 75 breeds of mallard! I don't have to worry about egg-color, or earlobes, or tail posture, or anything like that. It's really easy.

What I am referring to when I say to start with breeders that meet the Standard of Perfection is this-when trying to develop a breed, you would, I assume, be crossing 2 other breeds with a specific goal in mind based on the characteristics/genetics of the 2 parents-if not, how did you decide on what 2 breeds to cross to begin with?
The parents of the "project" birds should meet the Standard so that when the new bird is replicated, you don't have a soup-salad of a mess.
It doesn't sound as if you're sure of the genetics of the hen being used in this breeding project so I don't understand how you can possibly replicate her genetics. You are ASSUMING she has recent Runner blood, but aren't sure. How then, will you choose other females to use in your project? Does that make sense?
I am not trying to be a buzzkill and I strongly believe that kids involved with animals is an amazing thing. The fact that you have a deep interest in the ducks is wonderful, but you have to set realistic and attainable goals.
In order to create a breed, you MUST have a VERY deep field of breeders to choose from.
Ducks are, in my opinion, VERY difficult to breed to Standard and I just don't want to see people creating more breeds that are actually just "Heinz 57" ducks.
Find a breed you truly love and work on perfecting THAT breed. Perfect your own line of an existing breed...now THAT'S impressive.
I actually understand the term "culling", but it eats me up to think that many ducklings are killed because they don't meet the criteria...bugs me to no end!
I don't want to discourage a young person from being involved with ducks-ducks are a great hobby and you could be doing so many destructive things that it's good to see you have chosen to walk a positive path.
Please just consider all of the variables that go into such an undertaking.
Again...I suppose I'm a killjoy, but trying to be a realistic killjoy!