the Blackest Ones: on exploring the significance of Cemani mutations

[DCchicken]

So, a AC is always fibro melanistic where a Kedu has color and isn't. So are they one and the same breed? It would seem to me that they would be completely separate.

Another way to think about it is that Kedu and Cemani are the same breed. Ayam Cemani are black from the FM gene. The Kedu are the clear skin version of the Cemani and carry the FM gene. So if you breed enough Kedu, you could end up with a black bird (Cemani). There is also a Partridge color of Kedu called Hsian. Below is a picture of my Kedu.

 

[Extra Java]

Do we know what genes control oral tissue? Or do we know why some black skins lack completely black oral tissue?...There are variations on the tongue - some are partially black etc...

 

[DCchicken]

Do we know what genes control oral tissue?  Or do we know why some black skins lack completely black oral tissue?...There are variations on the tongue - some are partially black etc...

For Cemani to get the black in the mouth and tongue, the bird needs to have two copies of the FM gene plus the gypsy face modifier.

 

[sharkman]

For Cemani to get the black in the mouth and tongue, the bird needs to have two copies of the FM gene plus the gypsy face modifier.

If this is true then why has no one been able to breed to 100% black tongues? It seems even 100% dark black combs are in roos is not even possible. I hear most people say black tongues are only in a few %. If it was a straight genetic thing like that if you breed a black toung to a black tongue it should be in a high % or the babys?

 

[Extra Java]

That's what I'm talking about! AND...some tongues are only ½ black.

Un-identified oral genes???

 

[DCchicken]

If this is true then why has no one been able to breed to 100% black tongues? It seems even 100% dark black combs are in roos is not even possible. I hear most people say black tongues are only in a few %. If it was a straight genetic thing like that if you breed a black toung to a black tongue it should be in a high % or the babys?

Even when you have all the correct genes, some birds will just not develop the hyperpigmentation correctly. To get the best quality, you need to hatch in very large numbers and cull hard. However if you start with birds with white toes, you will most likely never get black in the mouth.

 

[sharkman]

Even when you have all the correct genes, some birds will just not develop the hyperpigmentation correctly. To get the best quality, you need to hatch in very large numbers and cull hard. However if you start with birds with white toes, you will most likely never get black in the mouth.

I think FM is the most challenging chicken feature to deal with and I think it involves the least understood genes also. What are your thoughts on black combs in roosters over a year old? What % are black and stay black and don't turn mulberry.

 

[flyingmonkeypoop]

So just a quick question. So many people seem to be having issues getting a really black face, and a few have said it is impossible to get it all in the cemani's regularly. So the question I have, is what makes it different than silkies? Even the hatchery silkie hens I have owned in the past have a jet black face.

 

[Extra Java]

What I believe (and I'm no expert) but there must be some undocumented genes at play.

SKIN COLOR - has it's own genes.

SHANK COLOR - is the result of a combination of up to 5 genes.
Remember, when we look at shank color, we are seeing feathers/follicles, scales, upper or sub dermal.

EYE COLOR - 3 or so genes.
My friend wants the br gene for his black skin project. Recessive-Z sex link gene, area around pupil is brown.
This brown is thought to be positively affected by the E gene and negatively by silver.

ORAL?
Do we know the genes behind these tissues? It would be interesting to find out...

 

[DCchicken]

So just a quick question. So many people seem to be having issues getting a really black face, and a few have said it is impossible to get it all in the cemani's regularly. So the question I have, is what makes it different than silkies? Even the hatchery silkie hens I have owned in the past have a jet black face.

Many of the lines of Ayam Cemani in this country were raised land-race and not to any standard. So it's not that it is impossible to get black all over, it just requires very strict breeding and culling. The problem is that many of the people buying Cemani right now hatch and sell every bird because of the high value for each bird. The breeders with the best Cemani in the U.S. have not sold a single bird this year. One breeder culls at hatch. But other breeders see the breed as a source of income. So they buy some Cemani, breed them, and don't cull. Then they are confused as to why their birds are still throwing chicks with non-black areas or white nails. Ayam Cemani is not a breed that will make you money. Breeding requires lots of time and money. You have to have lots of coops to grow out birds for each generation. It is going to take years of very strict breeding to get perfect black Cemani like they have in Indonesia.

However, it is common for Svart Hona, to have some mulberry in the combs and wattles. But Svart Hona were raised to also be cold-hardy and dual-purpose. I plan on keeping two pens with my Svart Hona. One will be the original line and one will be crossed with my best Ayam Cemani. That way I can keep the cold-hardiness of the original Svart Honas and improve the blackness from my Ayam Cemani.

Also were the silkies you looked at have black skin under the wing or was it gray?