The Buckeye Thread

[Blueface]

Mr. Blockberger and Mr. Mongold recreated both Bantam and LF Buckeyes. I understand their Buckeyes were very good specimens of the breed, did well at the shows and a lot of today's lines go back to their recreation.

Where is the written proof to all of these accusations? There is a whole lot of writing yet nothing factual or reference based really being said.

 

[Blueface]

Mr. Urch just obtained stock from breeders he had sold stock to previously so he did not cross lines. It was not in 2008 but 2009. Urch's strain still remains the most pure in terms of going back to the originator.

Again, where is the WRITTEN records to support this statement? It is a clear matter of opinion unless documentation is supplied.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Mr. Blockberger and Mr. Mongold recreated both Bantam and LF Buckeyes. I understand their Buckeyes were very good specimens of the breed, did well at the shows and a lot of today's lines go back to their recreation.

So, which lines are you referring to that go back to these copy cat lines? What shows and how well? I too would like to see some factual documentation to support these claims.
Pardon my hesitation at swallowing all this, but one of the things that has made me love this breed is their history and WHO developed them. It was one lady, as we all know, and unless they have descended from Nettie's line itself, I would feel somewhat violated. It would be like saying you're making a recipe that has been handed down for generations, then finding out that someone change the ingredients 2 generations ago. It just isn't the same.

 

[Minniechickmama]

Since we have a few Buckeye breeders in this thread, I would like to ask how many mean/nasty roosters come out of your flocks each year? I would cull any that I have here, regardless of quality, because that is a trait I DO cull for. For me, NO nasty rooster has a home in my flock, and above all NO Buckeye that is mean would have a chance at even think of breeding here as being docile is a significant trait of consideration. I have yet to have one come at me. I did have one that might have dropped a wing once, got the dominant rooster treatment and turned into a soft, purring kitty afterward. Other than that there has been one person who got a mean roo from me last year, that she raised from a chick. I know that there is an oddball here and there that may get a mean streak, but I am just curious how many other breeders have had them pop up in their experience with them?

 

[cgmccary]

Quote:
I don't mean it as an accusation (what a bad choice of word). I am just reporting what some reputable source told. It is good question, & I agree with you, Joe. I looked where I first heard it, and it was here:

http://showbirdbid.proboards.com/thread/1654

He's probably wrong as nothing else seems to back it up, probably just Bantams. Why re-create them, as slfarms said when Urch had them? I should not assume anything is correct without more info -- so I don't confess to know personally myself. I also assumed perhaps it the reason strains sometimes did not cross well but this could be because of RIR and Cornish introductions in some lines.

If true, there probably are none left anyway. Most of the Buckeye go back to Mr. Urch anyway when you are really able to go far enough back which most are not able to do. He was about the only who had them for awhile it seems. Just because we do not know the origin beyond say10-20 years do not mean that ultimately, they go back to Urch.

I would be interested in knowing what you all know about your lines.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote: bluface: Again, where is the WRITTEN records to support this statement? It is a clear matter of opinion unless documentation is supplied.
Again, you are right but written records not necessary when I have Mr. Urch telling me. This isn't real property where the Statute of Frauds apply. Things can be proven by firsthand knowledge too. I base this on what Mr. Urch has told me that he did not ever cross anything into his Buckeyes and that he got them more than 50 years ago from Mr. Howard Tallman in Florida (who had them awhile). I believe Mr. Urch & he has firsthand knowledge of a lot. For one thing the Buckeyes I got from him were genetically bottlenecked. They were undersized and lacked good fertility which is what you would expect in an isolated population where great care was not taken over a long period of time (and nothing mixed in). The female was pretty good, but as I have said, the male was poor. I used him nonetheless because he was all I had.

Also, this would make sense too because Mr. Urch preserved lots of breeds. Because he has so many breeds, he could not breed each one like you and I. How could he? You and I select our breeder birds carefully. I only have two breeds I maintain. We should have better Buckeyes. If you have many breeds, how is this possible? It also would not be logistically possible to cross into his breeds or grade. He could however, select the best birds each year that he had.

If a breed is maintained for 50+ years and nothing introduced so I assume >50 generations of Buckeyes (& count Tallman's breeding before), then that is as pure as it gets. I believe, rightly or wrongly, that it is the reason I NEVER have gotten a single comb or anything out of the way -- i.e. so many years of breeding same to same. Do you understand my reasoning?

Mr. Urch would also be able to pick a few favorite breeds and take greater care with them which I think he has done (in other words, specialize in something). I agree that I do not know their route or what Mr. Tallman did to them, etc. You do not know this about your lines either. Mr. Urch's lines, I believe, can be traced back the further in time.

I had believed that Brown's could be traced back farther until I talked to him. Mr. Brown told me (among other things) that he got his first Buckeyes in 2000 and could not remember the name of the woman he got them from in Canada. This information I considered firsthand. It just did not lead past the year 2000, that's all.

I do not mean my words to antagonize anyone (I am not trying to offend). Things come out different when typed and not said in person. We can learn from one another if we give it a try. The Buckeye has enough folks who don't like it anyway. We can agree to disagree. Again, I am interested in the history of your lines, what you know. If what you know conflicts with mine, the truth is out there somewhere (and it may can be found). I love the breed and wish you all well in breeding yours.

 

[cgmccary]

Quote: My first male I got from Urch was a "manfighter." Since he was all I had, I bred him. A couple of years later (2008), I had another real bad manfighter & I culled him (and of course, he looked great). Since then, I have not had one. My current Buckeye males are very docile.

When I got my La Fleche trio from Mr. Urch last year, the male was a manfighter. I let him out of his pen thinking it was a confinement issue but oh no, he would chase you. I stooped down to get a waterer, and he hit me right in the face. I knew his time was limited. Because of my limited gene pool with La Fleche, I used him one time in breeding, then culled him & saved one son and some daughters.

The thing is sometimes, a fighter won't manifest himself until later in his maturity & you have already culled -- what to do? I try and keep an extra male or two. Could the "mean gene" be carried by the female? And sometimes, the issue can be a situational one (i.e. how someone raises or keeps a bird confined). A real man-fighter will always come after you. I have not had enough mean ones to know all the signs early, but they must show a characteristic or two early. Also, I differentiate true meanness from a cockerel or rooster coming after me when I grab a hen -- this behavior, if only confined to those times, I do not punish . . . I have one rooster like that now -- he sometimes reacts and runs at me if I grab one of his hens. He has only hit me once though.

 

[Minniechickmama]

All the Buckeyes I have used for breeding have come from Urch as well. I have brought in some from a couple of other breeders, but have culled all but one of them. I might use her since I have a couple of boys I know would improve what I don't like about her. Or I might just sell her to lay for someone else. I still have to cut 4 hens and pullets from my breeding to have the right numbers for the space I have.

I have had some boys of other breeds who have challenged, but they have met Mr. Compost Pile very quickly after showing what they are about. The ones I am keeping my eye on this year are my New Hampshires. Their sire was one to think he had to protect the hens from me, which I did not like and wouldn't put up with. Too many of my customers have families with children and grandchildren and I don't want to take any more chances than are necessary with my birds.

 

[cgmccary]

A very reliable source who knows Mr. Mongold called him at my request and asked him about his Buckeyes in the 1970s. Mr. Mongold said that he and Mr. Blockberger had both Bantams and Large Fowl Buckeyes. However, they only re-created the Bantam Buckeye and that took about 10 years to get good ones. Mr. Mongold said their LF Buckeyes were not very good quality. He did not know the source of the LF Buckeyes that they had.

Mongold said that Duane Urch was the only other person who he knew of in those years who maintained a flock of LF Buckeyes.

If anyone wants more detail on what he said about his Bantam creation, you can PM me. Didn't the APA only add the Bantam Buckeye in like 1961? When did the ABA recognize them?

 

[Wynette]

A very reliable source who knows Mr. Mongold called him at my request and asked him about his Buckeyes in the 1970s. Mr. Mongold said that he and Mr. Blockberger had both Bantams and Large Fowl Buckeyes. However, they only re-created the Bantam Buckeye and that took about 10 years to get good ones. Mr. Mongold said their LF Buckeyes were not very good quality. He did not know the source of the LF Buckeyes that they had.

Mongold said that Duane Urch was the only other person who he knew of in those years who maintained a flock of LF Buckeyes.

If anyone wants more detail on what he said about his Bantam creation, you can PM me. Didn't the APA only add the Bantam Buckeye in like 1961? When did the ABA recognize them?

Chris, are you referring to Edgar Mongold? Just curious.