The Buckeye Thread

[Blueface]

Hey Joey. John said your farm is real nice. He said he's gonna drag me to see it. I love old farm houses.

Now that my daughter has graduated law school, she wants us to move to Long Island. They have super large poultry farms there. We sure can't afford one. So we're considering moving. Can you imagine raising 1000 Buckeye's on Long Island.

The farm is a work in progress but it'll be a nice place to raise dem mongrels. You should come out and see it. When it's all said and done I'll have over 50 mating pens, an actually brooder house, over 50 finishing pens for the larger males and my best females, more fruit trees, and all of the green open pasture they could ever want to grow up on. Most importantly.....no neighbors!! I really like raising the buckeyes and have quite the plans to make a real go at making the breeds great....both LF and bantam. The old house has a solid oak frame that my wife and I salvaged.....other than the frame we gutted the entire house....new floors, walls, windows, plumbing, electric, siding and roof. Its a nice place. We planted over 60 new spruce trees as wind breakers for the harsh winter winds and to provide the place with a little more privacy. The property is entirely fenced in and protected by my Great Pyrenees. You should stop out

.

Long Island doesn't sound like much fun. Way to many people!! It's great to hear that your daughter has well!! I recently finished my last degree in Materials Engineering and its very nice to have finished. "1000 Buckeyes on Long Island"...sounds like quite the Island project

. I wish you and your daughter only the best!!

 

[Jeff Lay]

Hey Jeff; let's hear your pearls of wisdom regarding the buckeye and egg production when you get the chance.

Not sure there is much that I can say that hasn't been said already about the Buckeye or egg production but I'll give it a shot!

When Nettie created the Buckeye, and for years up through 1920, she and others would write about the breeds legendary egg laying ability. I got started with Buckeyes for a variety of reasons and this legendary egg production was one of them! Much to my surprise the first Buckeyes I owned in 2002 were the worst layers I ever had the misfortune to feed. They were so bad I almost butchered the whole lot and moved on to another breed entirely. Instead, I decided to improve them through selective breeding and built some trap nests to begin studying and documenting my best layers. It took a few years to start improving but each generation got a little better simply by selecting the best layers for breeding. In about 3 years my Buckeyes went from laying an average of 85 eggs a year (yes, they were that bad) to approximately 175 eggs per year. It was in early 2005 when I found the Walter Hogan book, "Call of the Hen" and began using the Hogan method for selecting pullets even before they started laying. Soon my Buckeye gals went up to approximately 230 eggs per year and I ditched the trap nests entirely. Best of all my Buckeyes didn't start looking like Leghorns as some internet experts said they would!

Back in those early days (hard to believe 12 years ago was the "early days", but Buckeyes were not as popular in 2002 as they are today) there really wasn't many "utility" Buckeyes, most were from a hand full of exhibition lines and egg production was not a real concern to some exhibitors. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, the Buckeye went through a transformation of sorts over the last 7 years and while there are many more Buckeyes being bred and sold today (even several hatcheries carry them now) the vast majority are what I consider "utility" stock at best. Egg production was somewhat accidentally improved as a result of breeding for "genetic diversity" by an organization in the Carolina's which began a crusade to "save the Buckeye" in 2006. Rather than staying focused on the APA Standard of Perfection (SoP) and using proper line breeding techniques many of these newcomers to the breed were falsely convinced that "genetic diversity" was their friend. The old "exhibition" lines have all but disappeared and the vast majority of Buckeye Large Fowl we see people showing today are not the show quality they should be (in my humble opinion!). Sure, almost anyone can take a dozen Buckeyes to a local poultry show and come home with a "Best of Breed" award but seldom (if ever) do they advance to take the American Class. Putting Buckeyes on Champion Row just isn't happening for a lot of Buckeye breeders because this "genetic diversity" mantra has really set them back about 25 years! Part of the problem is simply the result of inexperience and we know the interweb is full of fly by night wanna be Buckeye experts especially during the past 7 years or so. People with absolutely no poultry experience what so ever can build an internet community and fool a lot of people into thinking they are the resource for all things Buckeye but if their not producing Champions what does that really say of their expertise??? While its a great thing to have more Buckeyes in the public hands its a bit disconcerting to see the overall quality decline as a result of some of these interweb experts.

The way I see it today, the future is brighter at this point for the Buckeye than any other time in the breeds history. We have a breed club that is bringing more and more people to the Buckeye breed every day and giving them tools to succeed as breeders! If some of these folks continue to look toward breeders like Shumaker Farms for help mentoring them and improving their stock the Buckeye will reach heights it never could during Nettie Metcalf's day. I'm very optimistic about the future and the legacy of the Buckeye breed as it enters the 110th year of being recognized as a breed. Going forward I believe more needs to be done to improve the bantam Buckeye and there are a handful of folks raising and improving these little jewels. John Brown and Sharon Fildes, both in southwest Ohio are two folks that are bringing the bantam Buckeyes back up to snuff (I hope I didn't violate any BYC rule for mentioning them by name and recognizing their work?) and I think they deserve the recognition. It's hard work breeding any fowl to the SoP and it's not just one or two traits that need to be focused on to produce quality birds. We Buckeye owners are lucky to have the resources available to us that we do and the BYC forum has played a role in that as well.

So there you go Joe, I have rambled on about the Buckeye and egg production perhaps more so than you or others care to read! ;-)

Jeff

 

[Blueface]

Not sure there is much that I can say that hasn't been said already about the Buckeye or egg production but I'll give it a shot!

When Nettie created the Buckeye, and for years up through 1920, she and others would write about the breeds legendary egg laying ability. I got started with Buckeyes for a variety of reasons and this legendary egg production was one of them! Much to my surprise the first Buckeyes I owned in 2002 were the worst layers I ever had the misfortune to feed. They were so bad I almost butchered the whole lot and moved on to another breed entirely. Instead, I decided to improve them through selective breeding and built some trap nests to begin studying and documenting my best layers. It took a few years to start improving but each generation got a little better simply by selecting the best layers for breeding. In about 3 years my Buckeyes went from laying an average of 85 eggs a year (yes, they were that bad) to approximately 175 eggs per year. It was in early 2005 when I found the Walter Hogan book, "Call of the Hen" and began using the Hogan method for selecting pullets even before they started laying. Soon my Buckeye gals went up to approximately 230 eggs per year and I ditched the trap nests entirely. Best of all my Buckeyes didn't start looking like Leghorns as some internet experts said they would!

Back in those early days (hard to believe 12 years ago was the "early days", but Buckeyes were not as popular in 2002 as they are today) there really wasn't many "utility" Buckeyes, most were from a hand full of exhibition lines and egg production was not a real concern to some exhibitors. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, the Buckeye went through a transformation of sorts over the last 7 years and while there are many more Buckeyes being bred and sold today (even several hatcheries carry them now) the vast majority are what I consider "utility" stock at best. Egg production was somewhat accidentally improved as a result of breeding for "genetic diversity" by an organization in the Carolina's which began a crusade to "save the Buckeye" in 2006. Rather than staying focused on the APA Standard of Perfection (SoP) and using proper line breeding techniques many of these newcomers to the breed were falsely convinced that "genetic diversity" was their friend. The old "exhibition" lines have all but disappeared and the vast majority of Buckeye Large Fowl we see people showing today are not the show quality they should be (in my humble opinion!). Sure, almost anyone can take a dozen Buckeyes to a local poultry show and come home with a "Best of Breed" award but seldom (if ever) do they advance to take the American Class. Putting Buckeyes on Champion Row just isn't happening for a lot of Buckeye breeders because this "genetic diversity" mantra has really set them back about 25 years! Part of the problem is simply the result of inexperience and we know the interweb is full of fly by night wanna be Buckeye experts especially during the past 7 years or so. People with absolutely no poultry experience what so ever can build an internet community and fool a lot of people into thinking they are the resource for all things Buckeye but if their not producing Champions what does that really say of their expertise??? While its a great thing to have more Buckeyes in the public hands its a bit disconcerting to see the overall quality decline as a result of some of these interweb experts.

The way I see it today, the future is brighter at this point for the Buckeye than any other time in the breeds history. We have a breed club that is bringing more and more people to the Buckeye breed every day and giving them tools to succeed as breeders! If some of these folks continue to look toward breeders like Shumaker Farms for help mentoring them and improving their stock the Buckeye will reach heights it never could during Nettie Metcalf's day. I'm very optimistic about the future and the legacy of the Buckeye breed as it enters the 110th year of being recognized as a breed. Going forward I believe more needs to be done to improve the bantam Buckeye and there are a handful of folks raising and improving these little jewels. John Brown and Sharon Fildes, both in southwest Ohio are two folks that are bringing the bantam Buckeyes back up to snuff (I hope I didn't violate any BYC rule for mentioning them by name and recognizing their work?) and I think they deserve the recognition. It's hard work breeding any fowl to the SoP and it's not just one or two traits that need to be focused on to produce quality birds. We Buckeye owners are lucky to have the resources available to us that we do and the BYC forum has played a role in that as well.

So there you go Joe, I have rambled on about the Buckeye and egg production perhaps more so than you or others care to read! ;-)

Jeff

That was quite the "shot"; there is a lot of good information there. You probably should have moved on to another breed.....those silkies are all of the rave I hear . I saw you admiring the pretty bright pink ones at the ON....lol

I've noticed the terminology "Genetic diversity" popping up here and there. I do understand its intended value but unfortunately, if a flock is bred correctly; getting birds from every part of the country is not necessary. I've observed that if you start incorporating a smorgasbord of traits, it becomes nearly impossible to effectively maintain a high standard of reproducible quality in appearance. If you start with just two different lines, I've noticed that its much easier to breed the desirable traits without having to worry about were the undesirable traits came from and how to breed them out. Heck; you can start with just one solid line and go from there.....IF* you understand how to breed it.

I don't think that breeding program that you are referring too did it by accident.....it was much intended but how they described it; I am at odds with. When ever you cross two or more lines of birds; you resulting offsprings have what is called hybrid vigor and will generally be better in health and production than either of the two lines initially utilized. The growth rate will naturally increase as well. I've read recently that this kind of program is considered to be a "gold-standard" breed program. I can't help but find that immensely entertaining because all that was done was the crossing of different lines and the resulting birds were fed properly. Naturally they are going to grow better and faster. If this were the case, nearly everyone has a "gold-standard" breeding program. That term sure sounds good though and that's what it really only is...just a term to make people go "ooh and ahh" with the hope of selling more birds. What is more important IMO is how the breeding is conducted, 3,4,5 years down the road; sure its entirely possible to go out and get fresh blood as the term "genetic diversity" suggests and that is great for "utility" purposes. Introducing fresh genes will help the vigor of the birds but unfortunately destroy any type of control of "exhibition" type birds. A real "gold-standard" program, IMO, is a program that can maintain a line of birds by breaking them down into two or three separate families that can be bred back on each other if and when it's necessary to maintain desirable traits. It's much for time intensive and detail oriented than simply breeding a couple lots of birds a few years and labeling them a "success". They did save the buckeye; the "utility" buckeye.

The internet is a powerful tool! I remember the phrase "If its on the internet, then it must be true"..........buyer beware with that one!! You bring up a good point about show quality buckeyes.....just because you take home "Best of Breed" doesn't mean the breed is where it needs to be in reference to the SOP. I've seen various breeds that are relatively rare exhibited with broken tails, poor combs, overall poor quality and poor health win Best of Breed because they were the only ones there. That doesn't make them special but being able to advance does have some merit especially if the show is a large event with a number of birds in the class. I myself have been a part of a few smaller shows, heck one of which only had 12 or so birds in the class but I advanced to being Grand Champion of Show and that does speak for itself to a degree.

I would agree that the future is bright for the breed; it is gaining recognition and is being noticed.......each year the breed does make it to Champion Row and that is important. I have always felt that for any breed; you have to breed it as a "total package" working on all aspects of the breed simultaneously to yield favorable results.....we all can see where "build the barn and then paint it" has done for the breed......it's hard to get the right paint if it wasn't there to begin with

. I've had more than one judge tell me that once you lose the right color, its nearly impossible to regain it.

I mentioned above about feeding buckeyes properly; what are your thoughts on feeding buckeyes chicks..there is a bunch of information out there, but I'm curious your thoughts?

 

[Blueface]

I guess the Ohio House of Representatives heard the news also

I got this in the mail.

 

[fowlman01]

Obama hasn't sent you anything yet? These politicians can't get any real business done so I'm delighted the are at least taking care of chicken business.

Walt

 

[Blueface]

Obama hasn't sent you anything yet? These politicians can't get any real business done so I'm delighted the are at least taking care of chicken business.

Walt

Not yet, but I'm sure it's on its way; he'll probably be offering them health care at reduced price.........Buckeye business is real business....it's the only breed that matters in the American class anyway

The real truth is that Ohio is a great agricultural state and its representatives care about the promotion of agricultural aspects. Sure its nothing more than a breed of chicken...but it is an O-H-I-O based breed and that seems to have stricken a cord with them. Ohioans take their buckeyes pretty seriously.....no matter what the case is.

I'm actually glad they have taken notice because it makes me feel that our state legislature actually does care about the little things........that can't be said of many of our states. At least USC has the "trojans"; They come in many different styles so I'm told

 

[slfarms]

Not sure there is much that I can say that hasn't been said already about the Buckeye or egg production but I'll give it a shot!


When Nettie created the Buckeye, and for years up through 1920, she and others would write about the breeds legendary egg laying ability. I got started with Buckeyes for a variety of reasons and this legendary egg production was one of them! Much to my surprise the first Buckeyes I owned in 2002 were the worst layers I ever had the misfortune to feed. They were so bad I almost butchered the whole lot and moved on to another breed entirely.  Instead, I decided to improve them through selective breeding and built some trap nests to begin studying and documenting my best layers. It took a few years to start improving but each generation got a little better simply by selecting the best layers for breeding. In about 3 years my Buckeyes went from laying an average of 85 eggs a year (yes, they were that bad) to approximately 175 eggs per year. It was in early 2005 when I found the Walter Hogan book, "Call of the Hen" and began using the Hogan method for selecting pullets even before they started laying.  Soon my Buckeye gals went up to approximately 230 eggs per year and I ditched the trap nests entirely. Best of all my Buckeyes didn't start looking like Leghorns as some internet experts said they would! 


Back in those early days (hard to believe 12 years ago was the "early days", but Buckeyes were not as popular in 2002 as they are today) there really wasn't many "utility" Buckeyes, most were from a hand full of exhibition lines and egg production was not a real concern to some exhibitors.  Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on your perspective, the Buckeye went through a transformation of sorts over the last 7 years and while there are many more Buckeyes being bred and sold today (even several hatcheries carry them now) the vast majority are what I consider "utility" stock at best.  Egg production was somewhat accidentally improved as a result of breeding for "genetic diversity" by an organization in the Carolina's which began a crusade to "save the Buckeye" in 2006.  Rather than staying focused on the APA Standard of Perfection (SoP) and using proper line breeding techniques many of these newcomers to the breed were falsely convinced that "genetic diversity" was their friend. The old "exhibition" lines have all but disappeared and the vast majority of Buckeye Large Fowl we see people showing today are not the show quality they should be (in my humble opinion!). Sure, almost anyone can take a dozen Buckeyes to a local poultry show and come home with a "Best of Breed" award but seldom (if ever) do they advance to take the American Class.  Putting Buckeyes on Champion Row just isn't happening for a lot of Buckeye breeders because this "genetic diversity" mantra has really set them back about 25 years!  Part of the problem is simply the result of inexperience and we know the interweb is full of fly by night wanna be Buckeye experts especially during the past 7 years or so.  People with absolutely no poultry experience what so ever can build an internet community and fool a lot of people into thinking they are the resource for all things Buckeye but if their not producing Champions what does that really say of their expertise??? While its a great thing to have more Buckeyes in the public hands its a bit disconcerting to see the overall quality decline as a result of some of these interweb experts.


The way I see it today, the future is brighter at this point for the Buckeye than any other time in the breeds history. We have a breed club that is bringing more and more people to the Buckeye breed every day and giving them tools to succeed as breeders! If some of these folks continue to look toward breeders like Shumaker Farms for help mentoring them and improving their stock the Buckeye will reach heights it never could during Nettie Metcalf's day.  I'm very optimistic about the future and the legacy of the Buckeye breed as it enters the 110th year of being recognized as a breed.  Going forward I believe more needs to be done to improve the bantam Buckeye and there are a handful of folks raising and improving these little jewels. John Brown and Sharon Fildes, both in southwest Ohio are two folks that are bringing the bantam Buckeyes back up to snuff (I hope I didn't violate any BYC rule for mentioning them by name and recognizing their work?) and I think they deserve the recognition.  It's hard work breeding any fowl to the SoP and it's not just one or two traits that need to be focused on to produce quality birds. We Buckeye owners are lucky to have the resources available to us that we do and the BYC forum has played a role in that as well.


So there you go Joe, I have rambled on about the Buckeye and egg production perhaps more so than you or others care to read! ;-)


Jeff

 

I love it when you go on your rambles. We get to learn more about the breed through that.

 

[slfarms]

At least USC has the "trojans"; They come in many different styles so I'm told

I have to admit that comment made me giggle ;-)

 

[fowlman01]

Not yet, but I'm sure it's on its way; he'll probably be offering them health care at reduced price.........Buckeye business is real business....it's the only breed that matters in the American class anyway

The real truth is that Ohio is a great agricultural state and its representatives care about the promotion of agricultural aspects. Sure its nothing more than a breed of chicken...but it is an O-H-I-O based breed and that seems to have stricken a cord with them. Ohioans take their buckeyes pretty seriously.....no matter what the case is.

I'm actually glad they have taken notice because it makes me feel that our state legislature actually does care about the little things........that can't be said of many of our states. At least USC has the "trojans"; They come in many different styles so I'm told

I'm not up on all the Trojan styles, but I have heard there are plenty to choose from. March Fong Eu who was Secretary of State for Cali back around 1970 decreed me the "Chicken King of All California". .....but that was not breed specific and back then they could do things like that but still get the business they are being paid to do done...for the most part. When Obama sends his proclamation you will have the trifecta and they should all be framed and placed in a prominent place. I'll have to find my chicken king papers......I know at the tiime I was just happy that they didn't accidently make king..... queen........you know how hard it is for those politicians to get anything right.

Walt

 

[Blueface]

I'm not up on all the Trojan styles, but I have heard there are plenty to choose from. March Fong Eu who was Secretary of State for Cali back around 1970 decreed me the "Chicken King of All California". .....but that was not breed specific and back then they could do things like that but still get the business they are being paid to do done...for the most part. When Obama sends his proclamation you will have the trifecta and they should all be framed and placed in a prominent place. I'll have to find my chicken king papers......I know at the tiime I was just happy that they didn't accidently make king..... queen........you know how hard it is for those politicians to get anything right.

Walt

All hail King Walt.....lol...take care