The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[getaclue]

Cynthia, Thank you so much! When I posted what I did, and no one really said anything, I thought I may have shot myself in the foot. You DO understand what I was talking about. Whew! What a relief. I listened to what some of them had to say, then did some research. For the most part they are parroting "snake oil" salesmen.

The reason they get such a following is that, when someone asks for help, they don't know the right thing to do, and are vulnerable. Enters holistic guru, with all the answers.
The person needing the help wants to do what's right, and think they are being handed a healthy, natural solution to their problem, from someone that is experienced, and knows what they're talking about. It seems they stay on the thread just long enough to spout their nonsense, but not long enough to see the results of their help. I never see them coming back on, asking how the chicken is faring after a day, or two.

What I wonder is: After they pitch their miracle cures, do they send the person a private message with a link, to where they get their own supply of things they've suggested? Could a few of these people promoting this stuff, do this a sideline business, and the link to their supplier is actually their own business? Hmmmmm. That would account for the rudeness. They're protecting their income.

 

[speckledhen]

Cynthia, Thank you so much! When I posted what I did, and no one really said anything, I thought I may have shot myself in the foot. You DO understand what I was talking about. Whew! What a relief. I listened to what some of them had to say, then did some research. For the most part they are parroting "snake oil" salesmen.

The reason they get such a following is that, when someone asks for help, they don't know the right thing to do, and are vulnerable. Enters holistic guru, with all the answers.
The person needing the help wants to do what's right, and think they are being handed a healthy, natural solution to their problem, from someone that is experienced, and knows what they're talking about. It seems they stay on the thread just long enough to spout their nonsense, but not long enough to see the results of their help. I never see them coming back on, asking how the chicken is faring after a day, or two.

What I wonder is: After they pitch their miracle cures, do they send the person a private message with a link, to where they get their own supply of things they've suggested? Could a few of these people promoting this stuff, do this a sideline business, and the link to their supplier is actually their own business? Hmmmmm. That would account for the rudeness. They're protecting their income.

Oh, trust me, I got it. Though natural stuff has its place and of course, much of modern medicine began with natural herbs and spices and other plants, if it isn't working, why continue? Why expect more of it than it can deliver? I know turmeric has some cancer-fighting properties, but do I expect it to cure a hen in advanced internal laying? No. I give it as a booster in hopes that maybe, somehow, it will help her immune system fight off something. I was advised by a PhD in poultry science to give it. I give flax seed because of scientific studies that it also may have similar properties for hens. But, if a hen already is dying, neither will cure her. Both are beneficial, but there are no cure-alls.

The line I hate these days is "I did xyz and my chickens are okay/have no problems with it". Okay, well, SO? You did it and you didn't hurt them...yet. How long have you done xyz? Three days and no one is dead? How about long term? What happens when you run up against something that xyz is not helping? Do you just doggedly continue xyz? Do you even entertain the possibility that xyz may be part if your problem?

When I tell someone that internal laying is a hormone/genetic-based malfunction that is not curable and there is really nothing they can do other than make their hen as comfortable as possible or euthanize her, they keep coming back and asking what else they can do to fix the hen, I have a feeling that they are ripe for a guru about that time. They are in denial. The FF crowd is in denial. Like spoiled, petulant children, they hate being told "no" in any shape, form or fashion. They hate the simple truth and want answers, even if those answers are fake.

Some of these minions sound like they're hypnotized. If they'd just listen to reason for two minutes instead of chanting "Fermented feed is good...fermented feed is good..." or whatever idea they're caught up in at the moment.
**fair warning: watch out for possible minion invasion on this thread**

Oh, I wonder what some folks would think of a situation I had many years ago with a large group of brooded chicks. They were in the 8x8 coop and had been outside in the pen quite a bit. They got cocci during a very wet weather period and I could not find Corid anywhere. So, I used Sulmet. And it didn't fix the problem. Still saw bloody poop after the first round. So, I did another round of it. And I was still seeing what I felt was bloody poop. Upon investigation, I found out that Sulmet is very hard on their intestines and that I might see some blood in the poop after it was really fixing the cocci, or so someone told me. This was about 10 or 11 years ago, so early in my chicken-keeping. They looked very pale to me. So, a breeder I know said go buy some chicken livers and cook and chop them up and let them eat chicken livers, that the group may be anemic. And I did. Uh, oh, Mad Chicken Disease! Cannibalism! Ack! Nope, they got better quickly. It really seemed to help their poor ravaged systems. Vegetarian feed advocates would definitely cringe, LOL.

 

[speckledhen]

If I saw something like that in the woods I would immediately think "BEAR!!" And run in the opposite direction.
The fact he did not makes me thinks perhaps he knows too much

Me, too! Who runs toward something like that if it's real? That was my exact first thought!

 

[Leahs Mom]

i thought the same thing. I kept wondering if the guy had a gun on him.

 

[speckledhen]

i thought the same thing. I kept wondering if the guy had a gun on him.
View attachment 1161795

My notification for this reply said this:

Missing Blob for item 49862

Did BYC just call you a BLOB? LOL

 

[getaclue]

I always recommend giving occasional animal protein to chickens. There are actually nutrients in animal protein that omnivores need. They took animal protein out of the feed, because the fat content in the animal protein, would turn rancid faster than vegetable protein, reducing the shelf life of the feed, so more waste, less income for the same amount of product. The vegetable protein was cheaper too, so more income all the way around. It wasn't about keeping animals healthier. It was about income.

Nutritional fads, whether for humans, or animals, should be thoroughly investigated before taking the plunge. The FF fad is a prime example of this. When I say thoroughly investigated, that does not just mean the benefits, but the downside too. Those advocating FF, when encouraging others to jump on the bandwagon, rarely, if ever, mention that if anything goes wrong, that it can seriously harm, or kill the chickens.

 

[speckledhen]

I always recommend giving occasional animal protein to chickens. There are actually nutrients in animal protein that omnivores need. They took animal protein out of the feed, because the fat content in the animal protein, would turn rancid faster than vegetable protein, reducing the shelf life of the feed, so more waste, less income for the same amount of product. The vegetable protein was cheaper too, so more income all the way around. It wasn't about keeping animals healthier. It was about income.

Nutritional fads, whether for humans, or animals, should be thoroughly investigated before taking the plunge. The FF fad is a prime example of this. When I say thoroughly investigated, that does not just mean the benefits, but the downside too. Those advocating FF, when encouraging others to jump on the bandwagon, rarely, if ever, mention that if anything goes wrong, that it can seriously harm, or kill the chickens.

Yes, absolutely agree on all points. Also, in addition to the income perspective of vegetarian feeds, it gave the public the "feel goods", especially the new wave vegetarians who ate eggs, but didn't like that their chickens ate meat.

People tend to dismiss that chickens are omnivores and that they literally jump at the chance for animal protein, including bugs, snakes, lizards and mice. They know what they need if you let them show you, and don't force them to eat "chicken slop". I could not catch Jill recently when she found a just killed snake along the fence line. She thought she had died and gone to heaven and was not about to let me get that thing away from her--I just wanted to see what kind it was, but she won and slurped that thing down, lengthwise.

 

[Leahs Mom]

My notification for this reply said this:



Did BYC just call you a BLOB? LOL

 

[getaclue]

How is Athena doing?

 

[Leahs Mom]

@getaclue

Vegetarian chicken feed isn't only due to rancid animal fats.


One of the main (if not THE main) reasons for promoting vegetarian chicken feeds as "healthy" is because the factory farms sell their chicken litter to the beef industry for....FEED. Yes, they feed cattle chicken litter. (Another reason I can't buy meat from a grocery store.)

If there is animal protein in the feed, it might get spilled into the litter or be passed through manure. After the "mad cow disease" (BSE) scare, the FDA put a halt on feeding litter to cattle for a period of time. Therefore, to take care of that problem and be able to continue feeding it to cattle, they removed animal mater from the feed.

Quote from http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2077 (emphasis added)
As a result of the first case of bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) in the United States in December 2003, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) temporarily banned the feeding of poultry litter to beef cattle. The temporary ban was put in place to allow the FDA time to assess the risks to human health associated with the practice. Ruminant protein was permitted to be fed to poultry at the time the temporary ban was put in place. Some scientists were concerned that the infectious agents of BSE could be passed to beef cattle via spilled feed or manure. Since that time, FDA has mandated the removal of all tissues that have been shown to carry infectious agents of BSE (i.e., specified risk materials) from poultry diets. As a result, the practical possibility of transmitting BSE to beef cattle via poultry litter was deemed to be zero by FDA. Poultry litter was again approved as a feedstuff for beef cattle in October 2005.

It's an amazingly disgusting practice - and it's certainly "convenient" to market "vegetarian fed chicken" to the millennials and the supposed "health conscious" that have no clue that the vegetarian fed chicken and eggs that they buy can't possibly be a healthy bird.

Every time I see companies marketing their chicken as "all vegetarian fed" it just makes me sick.

Here are a few links. Google: chicken litter cattle feed for a plethora of articles - (mostly from state ag departments telling how the litter must be processed and percentage that can be fed).

http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2077
http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/A/ANR-0557/ANR-0557.pdf
https://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/poulsci/tech_manuals/feeding_poultry_litter.pdf