The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[speckledhen]

I have only seen symptoms in younger birds under 5 months. I have never seen an adult bird show symptoms. I don't know for sure that it's always Mareks, but when a single bird suddenly he problems walking in a group of young birds I assume that's what it is.

That goes along with the information I have. I think that diagnostic labs see Mareks so much, they tend to render off the cuff, incorrect diagnoses without actual testing. A tumor to them means Mareks when, as a vet I always consulted told me, a bacterial infection can send bacteria all through the bloodstream, resulting in many small tumors and have zero to do with Marek's.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

so do you sell your birds? do you tell them you have Mareks on your property?

I don't sell birds, so it's not a problem for me.

 

[h2oratt]

That goes along with the information I have. I think that diagnostic labs see Mareks so much, they tend to render off the cuff, incorrect diagnoses without actual testing. A tumor to them means Mareks when, as a vet I always consulted told me, a bacterial infection can send bacteria all through the bloodstream, resulting in many small tumors and have zero to do with Marek's.

well, this necropsy I am having done they look at the cells under the microscope.

 

[h2oratt]

i like to get rid of the roosters but i guess that is out.

 

[speckledhen]

well, this necropsy I am having done they look at the cells under the microscope.

Well, that's what they're supposed to do, but I have it on good authority that it isn't always the case with some labs, especially the ones that do free necropsies.

i like to get rid of the roosters but i guess that is out.

You'd have to process them, I guess. I don't think Mareks would affect the meat if it's consumed, but you'd have to verify that.

 

[getaclue]

Ok, I want to chime in a little bit here. IF you are wanting to raise birds to show, you are going to be getting a breeding trio from a good breeder, from parent stock that has been shown, and done well at the show(s). You are going to hatch eggs from your breeding trio, then put the daddy over the pullets, and a cockerel over the original hens from the trio (mama). It's called line breeding. You are going to develop that line over time, selecting only the best, culling or selling the rest.

You would not start with hatching eggs. Hatching eggs are too uncertain as to the quality you're getting. Not all of the eggs I hatch produce show quality birds, even though they come from show quality stock. Plenty are culls. In a good line, you hatch about 50 chicks, to get 3 - 4 top of your line show chickens. The other reason you would not start a show line from eggs is that the resulting hatch would all be siblings, which is inbreeding, not line breeding. Line breeding is good. Inbreeding is not so good.

When developing your line, you don't want to introduce a new bloodline, because you introduce the flaws from that bloodline too. Again, you work with your own bloodline for at least 8 years. By then, you actually should have enough generations, and hatches to produce enough genetic diversity in your own line that you may not have to introduce a new bloodline.

While you may keep cull pullets/hens for eggs to eat, when you get ready to hatch you separate your breeding stock, and only use the eggs produced from the breeding stock, then you may reintegrate the breeding stock back into the flock, until you're ready to hatch again. Starting with one breed is usually enough work for the beginner. When you get ready for another breed, you do it the same way.

IF you don't want to show, or if you are wanting a mixed flock, then buy eggs and/or chicks BUT get them from a reputable breeder, preferably one that shows their birds. Even though you are not going to show them, and you're getting their culls, they're still better than hatchery stock. People that show their birds have to have their birds tested for quite a few diseases.

While NPIP testing is not done for all diseases, it does show the breeder has to pay attention to the health of their stock. The judges will disqualify, and usually demand a sickly bird be removed from the show. A breeder that shows their birds isn't running up to Tractor Supply to buy a bunch of hatchery chicks from who knows where, contaminated with who knows what. They're raising chicks from their own eggs, from their own stock. This greatly reduces the risk of introducing infections, diseases, parasites, etc.

 

[speckledhen]

I realize what Cheryl says is how many do it and yes, it is the way most go if they want to show their birds. (nice explanation, Cheryl). It's the way to develop a great stable and learn alot as you go. However, it can be possible to hatch eggs from a superior line and get show-worthy birds--not all will be, of course, no guarantees, but the probability is there.

Mary gifted me eggs from Jill Burk, who has combined some Guy Roy and some blood from our Fred's Hens. That's where Hector came from. Hector's sister was one that I gave to Andrew, one of the extras. She won at an APA sanctioned show. Atlas's daughter has won at shows, real shows, not county fairs. But, that's the Marvin Stukel blood coming out. If you hatch from a very well-known line like this, and you hatch a large enough sampling, you could get birds who are show-worthy. But you have to start with eggs that may be almost impossible to find. Hector's line has better pullets, overall. Atlas has produced both excellent pullets and cockerels out of his Stukel blood, though he would never win anything and has too many flaws. His main hens, being pure Stukel, are the real winners in that pen.

I'd still be line breeding from Atlas if the dwarf gene had not shown up. There have been some spectacular birds out of that pen. If I'd had the original Marvin Stukel male, I have zero doubt he would have taken the show if that was what I had done with him. He was amazing, and of course, hatched here from eggs sent to me. His sire was shipped directly from Marvin Stukel to my friend, William. Those eggs are like hens' teeth, though. I'm not sure William even has those birds now.

If you have Mareks on your property, however, IMO, it would be maybe a little shady taking birds to a show. I know breeders who did that and I lambasted them up one side and down the other. Someone said, "well, Mareks is everywhere, so who cares?" I'll tell you who cares... the person whose flock doesn't have it and you're exposing their birds to it.

 

[getaclue]

I was not trying to say you can't hatch out what you need. If you have a source of top quality eggs, for a reasonable price, then by all means take advantage of it. In my situation, as is the situation with many others, it's more practical, and economical to start with a breeding trio. From the time I began searching for the quality I wanted, in the breed I had decided on, it took me over eight months before I finally found someone, and nine months before they were available for me to bring home. Buying 3 - 4 dozen eggs to get the exceptional show quality I wanted, was more expensive than getting the trio, and hatching out my own. A lot depends on what is available to you, as to how you proceed. Either way, get your eggs/chicks/breeding stock from a good breeder instead of a hatchery or feed store.

Plenty of flocks are Mareks free. The problem with Mareks is two-fold. 1. Modern day chicken keeping practices. 2. A "vaccine" which should not even be called a vaccine, that gives a false sense of being protected. Had Mareks shown up back when our grandparents raised chickens, it would have been eradicated pretty quickly. Now, it's spiraled off into additional strains from the original. As long as people continue to "vaccinate", and continue keeping contaminated flocks, the virus will rage on.

This is one of the more informative, and well researched pieces on Mareks. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

 

[speckledhen]

I was not trying to say you can't hatch out what you need. If you have a source of top quality eggs, for a reasonable price, then by all means take advantage of it. In my situation, as is the situation with many others, it's more practical, and economical to start with a breeding trio. From the time I began searching for the quality I wanted, in the breed I had decided on, it took me over eight months before I finally found someone, and nine months before they were available for me to bring home. Buying 3 - 4 dozen eggs to get the exceptional show quality I wanted, was more expensive than getting the trio, and hatching out my own. A lot depends on what is available to you, as to how you proceed. Either way, get your eggs/chicks/breeding stock from a good breeder instead of a hatchery or feed store.

Plenty of flocks are Mareks free. The problem with Mareks is two-fold. 1. Modern day chicken keeping practices. 2. A "vaccine" which should not even be called a vaccine, that gives a false sense of being protected. Had Mareks shown up back when our grandparents raised chickens, it would have been eradicated pretty quickly. Now, it's spiraled off into additional strains from the original. As long as people continue to "vaccinate", and continue keeping contaminated flocks, the virus will rage on.

This is one of the more informative, and well researched pieces on Mareks. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

Absolutely, you are right, Cheryl. I had a great source for superior stock, certainly, but as you said, hatching even then can be tricky. DEFINITELY, no hatchery stock!

And you are very right on the Marek's, too, IMO. The consumer vaccine is not the same vaccine as must be stored at negative-whatever degrees that hatcheries give-the Kentucky State vet had a long discussion with Ladyhawk a couple of years ago about that issue (she didn't have any Marek's in the flock, just had a talk with him), and still, neither vaccine actually prevents Marek's, only the tumors associated with it. So, that seems to say to me, logically, that you can have Marek's carriers that do not show symptoms because of the vaccine. In any case, I'd rather not go that route, period.

 

[speckledhen]

Oh, I put this on my quilting thread, but here is the back of that gold, cream and olive green twin size Carpenter's Star quilt, all done except for binding, which I'll have to make and must change the foot on the machine to do that, so I've set it aside for now to start the pretty spring quilt with the yellow stars.