The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[h2oratt]

Ok, I want to chime in a little bit here. IF you are wanting to raise birds to show, you are going to be getting a breeding trio from a good breeder, from parent stock that has been shown, and done well at the show(s). You are going to hatch eggs from your breeding trio, then put the daddy over the pullets, and a cockerel over the original hens from the trio (mama). It's called line breeding. You are going to develop that line over time, selecting only the best, culling or selling the rest.

You would not start with hatching eggs. Hatching eggs are too uncertain as to the quality you're getting. Not all of the eggs I hatch produce show quality birds, even though they come from show quality stock. Plenty are culls. In a good line, you hatch about 50 chicks, to get 3 - 4 top of your line show chickens. The other reason you would not start a show line from eggs is that the resulting hatch would all be siblings, which is inbreeding, not line breeding. Line breeding is good. Inbreeding is not so good.

When developing your line, you don't want to introduce a new bloodline, because you introduce the flaws from that bloodline too. Again, you work with your own bloodline for at least 8 years. By then, you actually should have enough generations, and hatches to produce enough genetic diversity in your own line that you may not have to introduce a new bloodline.

While you may keep cull pullets/hens for eggs to eat, when you get ready to hatch you separate your breeding stock, and only use the eggs produced from the breeding stock, then you may reintegrate the breeding stock back into the flock, until you're ready to hatch again. Starting with one breed is usually enough work for the beginner. When you get ready for another breed, you do it the same way.

IF you don't want to show, or if you are wanting a mixed flock, then buy eggs and/or chicks BUT get them from a reputable breeder, preferably one that shows their birds. Even though you are not going to show them, and you're getting their culls, they're still better than hatchery stock. People that show their birds have to have their birds tested for quite a few diseases.

While NPIP testing is not done for all diseases, it does show the breeder has to pay attention to the health of their stock. The judges will disqualify, and usually demand a sickly bird be removed from the show. A breeder that shows their birds isn't running up to Tractor Supply to buy a bunch of hatchery chicks from who knows where, contaminated with who knows what. They're raising chicks from their own eggs, from their own stock. This greatly reduces the risk of introducing infections, diseases, parasites, etc.

Yes I understand this. I basically was seeing if chickens was something I even wanted to keep. Plus I have dogs which have been the only predator of my chickens. So I need to see if I could keep the chickens safe. I also found out show birds spend most of their time in cages, not what I want to do. And lastly you can’t test for mareks so impossible to know if you have it. Unless you keep your birds in a totally closed flock still a possibility because quarantine doesn’t work either for mareks. Really just the last nail in coffin. I enjoy what I have now, I am glad we could eat if the end of the world comes. Plus the eggs are fed to us and my dogs.
It’s just a learning curve. The more I read about mareks I think I just need to raise healthy birds.

If you take your bird to a show you have to be exposing it to mareks. They say it is everywhere and highly contagious. I don’t think they really know much about it.
I breed and,raise and train dogs so that is enough for now.

 

[h2oratt]

Oh, I put this on my quilting thread, but here is the back of that gold, cream and olive green twin size Carpenter's Star quilt, all done except for binding, which I'll have to make and must change the foot on the machine to do that, so I've set it aside for now to start the pretty spring quilt with the yellow stars. View attachment 1297099 View attachment 1297101

Beautiful!

 

[h2oratt]

I realize what Cheryl says is how many do it and yes, it is the way most go if they want to show their birds. (nice explanation, Cheryl). It's the way to develop a great stable and learn alot as you go. However, it can be possible to hatch eggs from a superior line and get show-worthy birds--not all will be, of course, no guarantees, but the probability is there.

Mary gifted me eggs from Jill Burk, who has combined some Guy Roy and some blood from our Fred's Hens. That's where Hector came from. Hector's sister was one that I gave to Andrew, one of the extras. She won at an APA sanctioned show. Atlas's daughter has won at shows, real shows, not county fairs. But, that's the Marvin Stukel blood coming out. If you hatch from a very well-known line like this, and you hatch a large enough sampling, you could get birds who are show-worthy. But you have to start with eggs that may be almost impossible to find. Hector's line has better pullets, overall. Atlas has produced both excellent pullets and cockerels out of his Stukel blood, though he would never win anything and has too many flaws. His main hens, being pure Stukel, are the real winners in that pen.

I'd still be line breeding from Atlas if the dwarf gene had not shown up. There have been some spectacular birds out of that pen. If I'd had the original Marvin Stukel male, I have zero doubt he would have taken the show if that was what I had done with him. He was amazing, and of course, hatched here from eggs sent to me. His sire was shipped directly from Marvin Stukel to my friend, William. Those eggs are like hens' teeth, though. I'm not sure William even has those birds now.

If you have Mareks on your property, however, IMO, it would be maybe a little shady taking birds to a show. I know breeders who did that and I lambasted them up one side and down the other. Someone said, "well, Mareks is everywhere, so who cares?" I'll tell you who cares... the person whose flock doesn't have it and you're exposing their birds to it.

Good explanation, but I guarantee you people that have mareks go to shows. We have a selling area that I am sure birds in there are from places with mareks. If what the vets say is true it is highly contagious from feather dander Which is all over the building. There is no test for it so even if you wanted to test you couldn’t. I think you just need to build a flock with resistance but that doesn’t mean your birds aren’t carriers. I will attach the report I have gotten so far from UCDavis. I decided I would rather know what 5he problem was rather than hide my head in the sand and just cull the bird and pretend like I didn’t know. I am sure this is what a lot of people do. I didn’t want to spend a lot of money on birds or eggs until I figured out what I was doing.
I had no idea that that chickens could fly!

 

[h2oratt]

I was not trying to say you can't hatch out what you need. If you have a source of top quality eggs, for a reasonable price, then by all means take advantage of it. In my situation, as is the situation with many others, it's more practical, and economical to start with a breeding trio. From the time I began searching for the quality I wanted, in the breed I had decided on, it took me over eight months before I finally found someone, and nine months before they were available for me to bring home. Buying 3 - 4 dozen eggs to get the exceptional show quality I wanted, was more expensive than getting the trio, and hatching out my own. A lot depends on what is available to you, as to how you proceed. Either way, get your eggs/chicks/breeding stock from a good breeder instead of a hatchery or feed store.

Plenty of flocks are Mareks free. The problem with Mareks is two-fold. 1. Modern day chicken keeping practices. 2. A "vaccine" which should not even be called a vaccine, that gives a false sense of being protected. Had Mareks shown up back when our grandparents raised chickens, it would have been eradicated pretty quickly. Now, it's spiraled off into additional strains from the original. As long as people continue to "vaccinate", and continue keeping contaminated flocks, the virus will rage on.

This is one of the more informative, and well researched pieces on Mareks. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/tthis-chicken-vaccine-makes-virus-dangerous

But how do you know they are mareks free.there is no test that is reasonable priced. Do you test any bird that goes down on your property? I bet most don’t.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

But how do you know they are mareks free.there is no test that is reasonable priced. Do you test any bird that goes down on your property? I bet most don’t.

That's why I have always assumed it's everywhere. I personally would never vaccinate. I believe in breeding for resistance to it and culling any that are symptomatic as to not spread it.

I would assume my whole flock has it in some form because I see an occasional one with it, but it doesn't appear to be rampant or anything that I sit and worry about. It's sad when we have to cull a young bird from it, we do it pretty quickly after seeing symptoms.

Many folks I read on BYC are in denial about Mareks and will try to treat birds with vitamins for weeks on end with the outcome the same. In the meantime the bird is shedding the virus.

Some have a necropsy done on deceased birds with the results being Mareks. I always wonder if it truly the Mareks that did it, or if it flared up due to another health stressor that was going to kill the bird anyways, and the person doing the necropsy only sees the Mareks.

It would be nice if they could develop a test for it, but I don't think I personally would use it.

 

[getaclue]

h2o, contact your state vet's office, and see about NPIP testing. It's free in most states, and by being a member, you can get free, or very low cost necropsies in the event that a bird dies. When you have one die, send it in. That way you will be certain. While they can't test for Mareks on a live bird, they can find it in necropsy. Plenty of folks on here thought they were dealing with Mareks, only to find out from a necropsy that it was something else, and the bird was Mareks free. Others have thought it was something else, only to be told it was Mareks. It works both ways.

The thing is, when you close your flock, by breeding, and hatching your own eggs, then raising your own chicks, you greatly reduce the chances of introducing it to your flock. I'm not saying there are not exceptions. There are, but everything you can do to minimize contamination from anything, is a good practice. I quit showing a couple years ago. Not because my birds aren't good enough, but because a few breeders only see dollar signs, and like speckledhen was saying, they don't care who they hurt in the process. While I find that there are not many like that, all it takes is one. AI was a big threat at the time too, so I decided it was not worth the risk.

Good breeders tend to pay closer attention to the health of their stock, and are more willing to deal with the situation, rather than continue with a sick flock, or contaminate other's flocks. Nothing is 100%, but you can increase the odds in your favor most of the time by doing your homework, learning who is a good breeder, and who not to buy from. Getting the best healthy stock you can, and hatching from your own healthy stock, without introducing new stock, increases your odds.

 

[1muttsfan]

Flocks can be infected by exposure to dander carried for miles by the wind, or other animals such as wild birds, not just directly from other chickens.
Dr. Mick Fulton at Michigan State University says that most birds are or likely eventually will be exposed to Mareks. In addition, once facilities are contaminated, the virus lingers for years.
There does not year appear to be any birds that have developed natural immunity. There are different strains of virus, some more pathogenic than others. So if a flock is infected by a less serious strain you might see immunity to other strains, something like the effects of vaccination, and see little illness or deaths in your flock.
The available vaccine is the turkey strain of Mareks, which stimulates some cross-immunity. But like MOST vaccines, it reduces illness, but does not prevent infection. There are only a few vaccines can do that (for example Rabies). I do not completely agree with the conclusions of the PBS article.

 

[h2oratt]

Here in california we can get a necropsy done for 20.00. That is where I took my bird.
I have the partial report. Still waiting for the pathologist to review the slides of my birds nerves but based on the gross examination it is pointing to Mareks. I just didnt know that by quaranting my chickens for 1 month I was still able to bring in Mareks. Or it was in my soil and I finally had a chicken that was susceptible to it. Live and Learn but I do know dog people and there are some that want to win at any cost and will bring sick dogs to a show and expose everyone to it. I am sure it is the same with chicken people.

 

[speckledhen]

I do not trust the Georgia state lab. I might if the old vet was still there, good man, but I guess he retired. They do free necropsies. But, NO state lab cares one iota about a backyard or show flock, IMO. All they care about are the commercial flocks, period. You can't have Mareks without ANY symptoms of ANY kind in ANY bird, ever, but I've seen lab reports that showed a MD conclusion in absence of any real evidence, yet, the bird died from a readily apparent abdominal infection, the first observation made in the report. Minute tumors through the body were most likely a result of the infection spreading into the bloodstream and traveling that way. No tumors were actually tested, just a conclusion drawn from sight. This hen had zero Mareks symptoms, but that was the preliminary conclusion. It was complete hogwash. The vet I know who looked over the report in KY said they'll do that and he's called labs on it more than once. He said the conclusion was 100% bogus. So, you can't trust any lab report, apparently, and those who think the state vet is all about protecting their birds take it as gospel, and assume they have MD in their flocks when they don't at all. That could lead to lax biosecurity and result in the very thing they didn't have, but thought they did.

I do not trust or advocate NPIP, though if you show, folks are required to have it, or a vet's certificate of health, depending on the location. Seen too many NPIP breeders passing disease to think it's of much value. I don't trust state labs, either. I'm getting to the point that if a bird here is ailing and I suspect a contagious disease, I'll cull and burn the body, but I'll never consult a lab about it. Sounds like the folks we were talking about, probably, but at least I know what certain diseases can look like and can do and I won't allow others to suffer by passing my birds to others if that ever happens, like Lisa does in keeping hers on her farm.

We're probably going to have to euthanize Rowena. She has that death smell, if you know what I mean. I think I do feel a little bit of fluid in her abdomen, though not much, but she is moving like a zombie, doesn't want to eat unless I bring her something special, etc. She is dying, no question, been here too many times.

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

Sorry to hear that Rowena isn't doing well. She did have a good life with you too.

Here in Wisconsin we are forced to report our critters and to have a farm identification number. They say it's to track diseases, but I think it's just to make more money off us. I personally wouldn't want to be sending in any sick animals for testing. I still have fears of people showing up and destroying my flock. I know it's an irrational fear, but I have seen it with the bird flu, and when we farmed there was always the fear of brucellosis if you didn't vaccinate all cattle, which was required I believe. A positive test for brucellosis got your whole herd destroyed and burned, and buried on your farm.