The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[holm25]

I am pretty sure it s a chocolate. He is a beautiful rooster! I do t know of any other way to tell other than ask people who raise them.

 

[h2oratt]

I am pretty sure it s a chocolate. He is a beautiful rooster! I do t know of any other way to tell other than ask people who raise them.

Thank you. I bought him from a lady that hatched him from an egg. The eggs were from papas poultry in Redding California. I have since bought more eggs from them to hatch some pullets. Right now I just have an assortment of hatchery hens from mcmurray.

Speckled hen, why did you cross a Delaware into your barred rocks?

I have 4 orps that are a project. He has crossed Delaware into his orps. So far the are beautiful. Esp one tha I am sure is rooster.

After all the horror stories I have heard about mean roosters I am so happy with my boy. He is not aggressive at all to me or my grandkids. Maybe once I put him with his same breed they will be able to handle him.

 

[speckledhen]

Thank you. I bought him from a lady that hatched him from an egg. The eggs were from papas poultry in Redding California. I have since bought more eggs from them to hatch some pullets. Right now I just have an assortment of hatchery hens from mcmurray.

Speckled hen, why did you cross a Delaware into your barred rocks?

I have 4 orps that are a project. He has crossed Delaware into his orps. So far the are beautiful. Esp one tha I am sure is rooster.

After all the horror stories I have heard about mean roosters I am so happy with my boy. He is not aggressive at all to me or my grandkids. Maybe once I put him with his same breed they will be able to handle him.

I think your male is chocolate. Just seems he is to me, having looked at a lot of photos of them, trying to figure out the popularity of the color-I have not been a fan of chocolates in the past. A friend of mine has chocolate bantam Orps. I think that is one color I need to see in person to really get a true sense of what it looks like. I don't think it photographs all that well, sort of the way I didn't like Russian Orloffs until I saw a pair in person.

My friend Ellie lives in a town next to Redding so she went to Jeff's place. She got a few eggs to put under broodies. It was not what she expected from looking at his website. Apparently, he breeds Golden Retrievers and has cages of puppies in between the cages of birds, among other things that surprised her. But, she got some wry tail Gold Laced Cochin (not obvious as chicks, of course) from some self-styped breeder near her and wanted to get some better stock so I told her I saw some nice birds folks had from him.

Why I bred Delawares into the Rock line, well, it wasn't that I wanted to, it was that I sort of had to or wait for more eggs from the breeder. The late Robert Blosl was a very well-respected authority and we were fortunate enough to have him join BYC not long before his sudden death a couple years ago. He gave me a formula to "breed back up" to my original Marvin Stukel male when that one was killed by a copperhead snake. I had traded that male to my friend Scott for a freezer full of venison in anticipation of getting eggs back from him at some future date, but Rex #1 was killed defending his hens and we both lost out.

I had only my heritage line Delaware rooster, Isaac, available with the Stukel BR hens and Bob told me how to do what I had to, using one of the males I got from the cross (I had given 5 eggs to a broody hen and I had no other rooster at the time except the Delaware). I hatched one normally-barred HUGE cockerel out of Isaac x Stukel BR hen that I was going to use. Isaac decided, it seemed to me, that Indy was just too much of a threat (he was actually beginning to bypass his dad in size at 24 weeks) so he killed him. It was unexpected, but he followed the pattern ever since, trying to take out every son in his flock when they got to breeding age. Atlas is following in Grandpa's footsteps that way, I guess, since he tried to off poor Apollo yesterday.

I was left with Indy's brother, Rex #2, who was single barred like a black sex link male. I took a chance and used that Rex and out of five chicks (2 barred pullets, 2 black pullets and Atlas), I got Atlas, who was double barred. I could have waited for a true choice rather than go with the only male that hatched, but I decided to give it a try. Atlas has flaws, certainly, but has produced sons with better barring than himself, since with every generation, there is more Stukel influence and less Delaware influence. So that's the story.

 

[Wyatt0224]

Have Hector and Atlas been around each other at all? And how is Hectors size? I know you talked about breeding Apollo over Hectors hens if Hectors attitude went south but that it would be to soon. Does that mean you will give Hectors future chicks to Apollo or Atlas to improve your stock?

 

[speckledhen]

Have Hector and Atlas been around each other at all? And how is Hectors size? I know you talked about breeding Apollo over Hectors hens if Hectors attitude went south but that it would be to soon. Does that mean you will give Hectors future chicks to Apollo or Atlas to improve your stock?

I must say, you sure pose questions that make me think! I appreciate that. The input helps. And it makes me think of things I've not gone to yet.

Hector and Atlas accidentally met up only once weeks ago. Atlas pushed his door open when I had not latched it from doing chores in there, and went out the door, walking into Hector and his girls. When I realized Atlas was out and I trotted out the door, Hector was lowering his head, picking at stuff on the ground while sidestepping toward Atlas. Atlas didn't react to him, just looked at the little imp, but I immediately snatched up both Atlas and Tessa, who was beside Atlas with hackles rising, about to put the smackdown on then, quite little Hector. I'm not sure what Atlas would do to such a young male who is acting like a much older male. I'm sort of afraid to take the risk. It would take only one good blow to really hurt Hector.

As far as actual breeding plans, I am not ready to figure that out yet. I have Apollo and his two up for sale, but no one wants them, it seems. If they go, and Hector turns on me, his three would have to go to Atlas. If Hector stays a good boy, my options are give a couple of Atlas's daughters to Hector and Hector's to Atlas, but I feel it will be a long time before I need to add to the numbers here. I'm still waiting for my old hens to decide they are leaving. Even crippled Amanda, who is 9 1/2 yrs old, is still laying. She hauls herself into the floor level nest, too. Bunch of tough old gals I have here.

Thea is not growing as she should. She is tiny. I figured she'd catch up but she is so slight, I'm not sure what will happen with her. She seems healthy and is the sweetest doll. She, to me, looks more like a 10 week old than a 15 week old, but her barring is the best of all three pullets of Hector's. I know that size doesn't always translate to the chicks. For example, Tessa and Zara and Apollo are all Ida's progeny. Ida is a TANK and Atlas is one of her largest ever males, but her daughters are not as wide as, say, Lizzie and Athena, who belong to other hens, probably Wynette since she was the best layer at the time I collected eggs they came from. Wynette is a big gal, don't get me wrong, but none were as huge as Big Ida. So, the largest gave me smaller, not small, but smaller, bodied birds than I expected to get. Thea could be the opposite and give me huge sons and daughters.


Adding pictures from this morning.
Hector and Thea




Hector, Mary and Jill

Miss Mary, quite contrary (remember that nursery rhyme?)


And completely unrelated, back to quilting again! 'Tis the season, though this simple summery quilt has been pieced for awhile and I'm getting it done while waiting to get larger batting for my actual fall quilt. Walmart was out of the size I needed today.

 

[getaclue]

speckled, it sounds like it might be time for you to consider sectioning off your coop(s), and runs a little more. Each of my males is in his own section, with the hens I've selected to breed with each of them. This helps in several ways. It reduces, or stops the rooster squabbles, which reduces injuries. Next, when each of the roosters have their own territory, they each become alpha's complete with traits, and personalities of an alpha, which is a good thing. An even better benefit, is that you know who is breeding with who, so that the traits you are trying to preserve, or more importantly, the traits you are trying to improve in your line(s) is more successful. It also helps ensure more line breeding, vs in breeding, which is preferred, giving you a better long range gene pool to pull from. I know this sounds a bit overwhelming at first, but once you get it all going, it's not so complicated.

As far as switching out hens that have been paired with one rooster, but you think their qualities would be improved by using another rooster, they can be switched out. Yes, it can take some time for them to accept a new rooster. I find the older ladies tend to reject a new mate longer than the younger ones. All of my roosters will "court" their new ladies, and back off if rejected, at first, but within a short time, either the hens begin to submit, or the alpha trait takes over, and they will mate whether the hen submits or not. Regardless of whether the hen(s) willingly submitted at first, or not, I find that by the end of the week, the hens are submitting as they should, and all is well.

I have an exception to this. I have one rooster that will not force a hen to submit. It's the darndest thing I've ever seen. My two oldest gals had been with their rooster for quite awhile. I decided to pair him with some of his daughters. Of course, the old gals wanted nothing to do with their new, younger rooster. He called them for treats, dipped his wing, and danced around them. They wanted nothing to do with him. He continued calling them for treats, but if they ignored him, he would get as close to them as they would allow, cluck at them, then call them again. By the third day, they hadn't accepted him, but resigned themselves to the fact that he was going to be around them. That afternoon, a hawk flew overhead. He sounded the alarm, ran over to them, and tried to herd them from the run, into the coop. When they didn't want to go, his hackles went up, and he began squawking at them, flapping wings at them, charging at them, and even pecked the slowest one on her back to get her moving. He herded them where he wanted them, and wouldn't let them move until he was sure the danger had passed. He walked out into the run, then called them. They came running right to him. If he was in the run, they had to be in the run. If he was in the coop, they had to be in the coop. When a hen was in the nest box laying, he stood guard. This went on for a week, but when he would dip his wing, and dance around them, they would still reject him. A couple days later, a squabble broke out, and he took care of it in short order. There would be no bickering in his flock. Later that same day, he called them for a treat, dipped his wing, and danced around one of the hens. She didn't squat, but she didn't reject him. She just stood there. He walked up to her, and gently pushed her down. She stayed down, and submitted. A little later, he did the same thing with the other one. It took him almost 2 weeks, but he completely won them over. From that point on, when he approached them, they would drop like flies for him.

Again, it's only a suggestion, but it might be a good thing to consider at this stage of things. You have to decide what works best for you, and your situation.

 

[1muttsfan]

Cyn the colors of that quilt are lovely, very old-fashioned.

Wyatt, very interesting questions, you have picked out the issues with great intuition.

 

[speckledhen]

speckled, it sounds like it might be time for you to consider sectioning off your coop(s), and runs a little more. Each of my males is in his own section, with the hens I've selected to breed with each of them. This helps in several ways. It reduces, or stops the rooster squabbles, which reduces injuries. Next, when each of the roosters have their own territory, they each become alpha's complete with traits, and personalities of an alpha, which is a good thing. An even better benefit, is that you know who is breeding with who, so that the traits you are trying to preserve, or more importantly, the traits you are trying to improve in your line(s) is more successful. It also helps ensure more line breeding, vs in breeding, which is preferred, giving you a better long range gene pool to pull from. I know this sounds a bit overwhelming at first, but once you get it all going, it's not so complicated.

As far as switching out hens that have been paired with one rooster, but you think their qualities would be improved by using another rooster, they can be switched out. Yes, it can take some time for them to accept a new rooster. I find the older ladies tend to reject a new mate longer than the younger ones. All of my roosters will "court" their new ladies, and back off if rejected, at first, but within a short time, either the hens begin to submit, or the alpha trait takes over, and they will mate whether the hen submits or not. Regardless of whether the hen(s) willingly submitted at first, or not, I find that by the end of the week, the hens are submitting as they should, and all is well.

I have an exception to this. I have one rooster that will not force a hen to submit. It's the darndest thing I've ever seen. My two oldest gals had been with their rooster for quite awhile. I decided to pair him with some of his daughters. Of course, the old gals wanted nothing to do with their new, younger rooster. He called them for treats, dipped his wing, and danced around them. They wanted nothing to do with him. He continued calling them for treats, but if they ignored him, he would get as close to them as they would allow, cluck at them, then call them again. By the third day, they hadn't accepted him, but resigned themselves to the fact that he was going to be around them. That afternoon, a hawk flew overhead. He sounded the alarm, ran over to them, and tried to herd them from the run, into the coop. When they didn't want to go, his hackles went up, and he began squawking at them, flapping wings at them, charging at them, and even pecked the slowest one on her back to get her moving. He herded them where he wanted them, and wouldn't let them move until he was sure the danger had passed. He walked out into the run, then called them. They came running right to him. If he was in the run, they had to be in the run. If he was in the coop, they had to be in the coop. When a hen was in the nest box laying, he stood guard. This went on for a week, but when he would dip his wing, and dance around them, they would still reject him. A couple days later, a squabble broke out, and he took care of it in short order. There would be no bickering in his flock. Later that same day, he called them for a treat, dipped his wing, and danced around one of the hens. She didn't squat, but she didn't reject him. She just stood there. He walked up to her, and gently pushed her down. She stayed down, and submitted. A little later, he did the same thing with the other one. It took him almost 2 weeks, but he completely won them over. From that point on, when he approached them, they would drop like flies for him.

Again, it's only a suggestion, but it might be a good thing to consider at this stage of things. You have to decide what works best for you, and your situation.

Overwhelming is right. Though I appreciate all the suggestions, unfortunately, I have sectioned the barn as much as I can. I have six pens I started with and divided one of the larger ones up again already so now there are seven, but that last one is smaller than I like. I don't care for pens smaller than 5x8, so hard to deal with clean up. And truly, I just plain don't want to do it. I am not a serious breeder, as you can see by the title of this thread, though I like a good quality Rock and don't want to go back to hatchery types again. The pen that surrounds the barn can't be sectioned because I have no pop doors, only the entry door on one end and the roll-up door on the other. My actual dream was really not to have different groups, but to have most all my birds running together other than the crippled old hens who cannot have a rooster and a small group of breeding BRs. It makes me weary just thinking about trying to do the breeder thing the "right" way, sigh. I may be able to swing something closer to optimal when one entire group of old hens is gone or enough gone that I can consolidate two groups and free up one pen.

Cyn the colors of that quilt are lovely, very old-fashioned.

Wyatt, very interesting questions, you have picked out the issues with great intuition.

Thanks, Mary. And I agree about Wyatt, great suggestions and comments and observations, always!

 

[h2oratt]

I think your male is chocolate. Just seems he is to me, having looked at a lot of photos of them, trying to figure out the popularity of the color-I have not been a fan of chocolates in the past. A friend of mine has chocolate bantam Orps. I think that is one color I need to see in person to really get a true sense of what it looks like. I don't think it photographs all that well, sort of the way I didn't like Russian Orloffs until I saw a pair in person.

My friend Ellie lives in a town next to Redding so she went to Jeff's place. She got a few eggs to put under broodies. It was not what she expected from looking at his website. Apparently, he breeds Golden Retrievers and has cages of puppies in between the cages of birds, among other things that surprised her. But, she got some wry tail Gold Laced Cochin (not obvious as chicks, of course) from some self-styped breeder near her and wanted to get some better stock so I told her I saw some nice birds folks had from him.

Why I bred Delawares into the Rock line, well, it wasn't that I wanted to, it was that I sort of had to or wait for more eggs from the breeder. The late Robert Blosl was a very well-respected authority and we were fortunate enough to have him join BYC not long before his sudden death a couple years ago. He gave me a formula to "breed back up" to my original Marvin Stukel male when that one was killed by a copperhead snake. I had traded that male to my friend Scott for a freezer full of venison in anticipation of getting eggs back from him at some future date, but Rex #1 was killed defending his hens and we both lost out.

I had only my heritage line Delaware rooster, Isaac, available with the Stukel BR hens and Bob told me how to do what I had to, using one of the males I got from the cross (I had given 5 eggs to a broody hen and I had no other rooster at the time except the Delaware).  I hatched one normally-barred HUGE cockerel out of Isaac x Stukel BR hen that I was going to use. Isaac decided, it seemed to me, that Indy was just too much of a threat (he was actually beginning to bypass his dad in size at 24 weeks) so he killed him. It was unexpected, but he followed the pattern ever since, trying to take out every son in his flock when they got to breeding age. Atlas is following in Grandpa's footsteps that way, I guess, since he tried to off poor Apollo yesterday.

I was left with Indy's brother, Rex #2, who was single barred like a black sex link male. I took a chance and used that Rex and out of five chicks (2 barred pullets, 2 black pullets and Atlas), I got Atlas, who was double barred. I could have waited for a true choice rather than go with the only male that hatched, but I decided to give it a try. Atlas has flaws, certainly, but has produced sons with better barring than himself, since with every generation, there is more Stukel influence and less Delaware influence. So that's the story.

Thank you for your response..
I must say I really am not in love with the chocolate color. I just took him because he was a breed I haven't been exposed to and I wanted some fertile eggs. I absolutely adore your barred birds. My favorite color is black and white. I will have to research what breeds have the barring.

I didn't know papas poultry also bred dogs. How many years ago did your friend go there? The Delaware looks like an interesting breed. Thank you for explaining why the Delaware was in your birds.. I hope by trimming my Roos nails the hens will be better off. I might have to just move the smaller ones out of his pen. When my orps that I hatched get big enough I will just keep them in with him. I have plenty of laying chickens now. My hatchery chickens are just starting their first molt.

 

[h2oratt]

I must say, you sure pose questions that make me think! I appreciate that. The input helps. And it makes me think of things I've not gone to yet. Hector and Atlas accidentally met up only once weeks ago. Atlas pushed his door open when I had not latched it from doing chores in there, and went out the door, walking into Hector and his girls. When I realized Atlas was out and I trotted out the door, Hector was lowering his head, picking at stuff on the ground while sidestepping toward Atlas. Atlas didn't react to him, just looked at the little imp, but I immediately snatched up both Atlas and Tessa, who was beside Atlas with hackles rising, about to put the smackdown on then, quite little Hector. I'm not sure what Atlas would do to such a young male who is acting like a much older male. I'm sort of afraid to take the risk. It would take only one good blow to really hurt Hector. As far as actual breeding plans, I am not ready to figure that out yet. I have Apollo and his two up for sale, but no one wants them, it seems. If they go, and Hector turns on me, his three would have to go to Atlas. If Hector stays a good boy, my options are give a couple of Atlas's daughters to Hector and Hector's to Atlas, but I feel it will be a long time before I need to add to the numbers here. I'm still waiting for my old hens to decide they are leaving. Even crippled Amanda, who is 9 1/2 yrs old, is still laying. She hauls herself into the floor level nest, too. Bunch of tough old gals I have here. Thea is not growing as she should. She is tiny. I figured she'd catch up but she is so slight, I'm not sure what will happen with her. She seems healthy and is the sweetest doll. She, to me, looks more like a 10 week old than a 15 week old, but her barring is the best of all three pullets of Hector's. I know that size doesn't always translate to the chicks. For example, Tessa and Zara and Apollo are all Ida's progeny. Ida is a TANK and Atlas is one of her largest ever males, but her daughters are not as wide as, say, Lizzie and Athena, who belong to other hens, probably Wynette since she was the best layer at the time I collected eggs they came from. Wynette is a big gal, don't get me wrong, but none were as huge as Big Ida. So, the largest gave me smaller, not small, but smaller, bodied birds than I expected to get. Thea could be the opposite and give me huge sons and daughters. Adding pictures from this morning. Hector and Thea Hector, Mary and Jill Miss Mary, quite contrary (remember that nursery rhyme?) And completely unrelated, back to quilting again! 'Tis the season, though this simple summery quilt has been pieced for awhile and I'm getting it done while waiting to get larger batting for my actual fall quilt. Walmart was out of the size I needed today.

Beautiful quilt.