The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[speckledhen]

Oh gosh! Is that even possible? And God forbid that ever happen but what you do if that did?

Suddenly, I get "rich text editor not compatible with your browser". Geez, it's the same browser.


I watched one of Hector's girls twist and turn and struggle violently a couple weeks ago to get loose from his grasp and I was about to intervene because he was not letting go and I was truly afraid he'd break her neck, but she got loose, finally. I'd be pretty miffed with him, but he's just a young male and not at all suave in his attempts.

 

[getaclue]

speckled, Don't give up on Hector yet! I am going to post something that Beekissed wrote. It's one of the best guides for understanding, and dealing with roosters that I've read to date. It's long, but well worth the read. My first rooster was good, until one day.... For a couple years, he stole the joy out of chicken keeping for me. I really considered not ever having a rooster again. When I read this, I had a much clearer understanding of things, and knew what had changed in my behavior, that triggered his behavior. It took awhile, since it had been an ongoing situation for quite some time, but I got him back under control. When I began with my line of BA's, I used her training techniques right from the start, for about a week, on the new rooster. After that week, all I've ever done since was just made sure to walk straight towards him first, when entering my coop, or run, and get him moving away from me. In all these years, he's never given me a moment's trouble.

When I hatched out some chicks, and the cockerels grew to the hormonal age, I was ready. I only had 1, my best specimen, turn on me one day. I understood what was going on, took immediate action, put him in "rooster training", and after a week, have never had another problem with him. It's been 2 years since that happened. All my roosters are sweethearts. I show mine, so any aggressive behavior towards people, is totally unacceptable. I hope this helps.

Beekissed
I'm going to give you a clue on "rooster speak"....holding him down doesn't mean anything to him. If you'll watch how roosters interact between dominant ones and subordinate ones, there is rarely any, if ever, holding a bird down for a long time when there is an altercation. There is very quick flogging, gripping by the back of the head and flinging him away or getting him down and giving some savage pecking to the back of the head or neck. No holding him down and nothing else. That's a rooster on a hen maneuver, not rooster on rooster.

Because your rooster is attacking you, you are the subordinate in this picture. You are getting dominated by your bird simply because you are walking where a subordinate isn't supposed to be walking when a dominant is in the area. What you never see is a dominant rooster getting attacked by a subordinate rooster unless there is going to be a definite shift in power, at which time the sub will challenge the dom and win...or lose. So far you are losing and not even challenging.

If you want to win this battle, you must go on the offensive, not the defensive. He who attacks first, and is still claiming the area when the other guy leaves it, is the winner. Some people never have to go on the offensive because their movements in the coop are so decisive that they move and act like a dominant and a 2 ft. rooster is smart enough to recognize a dominant attitude and behavior...which is likely why he's never attacked your husband. Most men move more decisively than do women and children and they rarely step around a bird, but walk through them.

Carrying him around also doesn't mean anything to him...it just doesn't translate at all. His environment is that coop and run floor and that's where you need to speak to him, in a language he understands. Because they are quick on their feet and can evade you, you need a training tool like a long, limber, supple rod of some kind...cutting a nice switch from a shrub or tree that will lengthen your reach by 5 ft. really helps in this. Don't use a rake or broom because they are too clumsy and stiff and can put the hurts on the guy when you don't really mean to.

When you enter your coop, walk with decisive movements and walk directly towards your rooster. Move him away from the feeder and the rest of the flock and keep a slow, determined pressure on him until he leaves the coop. The stick will help you guide him. Then...wait patiently while he gets his bird mind around what just happened. He will try to come back in the coop...let him. When he gets a good bit into that coop, take your switch and give him a good smack on the fluffy feathers under his tail if you can aim it well. If you cannot, just smack the floor near him very hard and fast until he hops and runs and keep at it until he leaves the coop once again. Repeat this process until he is too wary to come back in the coop.

Feed your hens. When he tries to come to the feeder, you "attack" him with the switch...smack the wall by the pop door just as he tries to enter. If he makes it inside, pursue him with the stick either smacking the floor or tapping him on the back or the head until he leaves in a hurry. Make him stay outside while you sit there and enjoy watching your hens eat. Use the stick to keep him from the flock..just him. Don't worry about the hens running and getting excited when this is happening...they will get over it. This is for the future of your flock and your management of it.

When the hens have had a good tucker....leave the coop and let him come back in. Go out later and walk through that flock and use your legs to scatter birds if they get in your way...top roosters do not step to one side for any other bird in the flock. You shouldn't either. Take your stick and startle him with a smack on the floor next to him when he is least expecting it...make that bird jump and RUN. Make him so nervous around you that he is always looking over his shoulder and trying to get out of your way. THAT'S how he needs to be from now on in your lives together. Forget about pets or cuddles...this is a language and behavior he understands. You can hand feed him and such later...right now you need to establish that when you move, he moves...away. When you turn your back, he doesn't move towards you...ever.

Then test him...take your stick along, move around in the coop, bend over with your back turned to him, feed, water, etc....but keep one eye on that rooster. If he even makes one tiny step in your direction or in your "zone", go on the attack and run him clear on out of the coop. Then keep him out while everyone else is eating.
THAT'S how a dominant rooster treats a subordinate. They don't let them crow, mate or even eat in their space. If the subordinate knows his place and watches over his shoulder a lot, he may get to come and eat while the other rooster is at the feeder...but he doesn't ever relax if he knows what is good for him. At any given time the dominant will run him off of that feed and he knows it, so he eats with one eye toward the door. If he feels the need to crow, it's not usually where the dom can reach him...maybe across the yard.

If your rooster crows while you are there, move towards him and keep on the pressure until he stops. He doesn't get to crow while you are there. He can crow later...not while you are there.

It all sounds time consuming but it really isn't...shouldn't take more than minutes for each lesson and you can learn a lot as you go along. And it can be fun if you venture into it with the right attitude....this is rooster training that really works if you do it correctly. This can work on strange roosters, multiple roosters and even old roosters...they can all learn. You rule the coop...now act like it. Carrying is for babies...you have a full grown rooster on your hands, not a baby.

 

[getaclue]

Even though it says the rich text editor is not compatible, etc., it seems to work fine anyway.

 

[speckledhen]

@getaclue I know that carrying a rooster around doesn't work. I keep telling people that but they listen to other folks because they love to hold their former baby, I think. I started doing what I think is similar to Bee's advice, don't engage him, but push him around with your body by going into his space and with your knees (or shins, depending on how tall you and he are) just shove him aside, don't let him get away with ANY move toward you. Let him know you're the alpha, not him. Babying doesn't do a thing. If a rooster is like Isaac or Atlas, it isn't so important to stay aloof from them-they will be good boys no matter what you do or don't do because from Day 1, it was obvious it is in their nature. Apollo naturally moves out of my way, always. But a rooster like Hector, whose physical development seems ahead of his, for lack of better term, emotional development will need an approach that shows him who is really in charge. I have observed Hector in different situations and he seems intelligent enough to learn this.

I remember when one of the males of this group (could have been Hector) was bullying the others, I'd thunk him on the back of the head/neck to discipline him. That is, in a smaller way, pretty similar to how a mother hen disciplines the chicks and how roosters dominate other males.


All that said, I believe wholeheartedly that intelligence plays a factor. A dumb-as-a-rock rooster will not learn no matter what methods you employ. He'll just keep being stupid.

 

[1muttsfan]

One of the reasons I like the AB's is that the roosters seem to be completely nonagressive - although my current adult has at times anxiously paced and hopped from one foot the the other when I have handled unhappy hens. They are usually very gentle with the hens too, and as they are not large they do little damage.

 

[Cetawin]

Those eyes are full of loves and nothing but. Hector will be fine....his namesake is watching him from above so he better shape up.

 

[speckledhen]

One of the reasons I like the AB's is that the roosters seem to be completely nonagressive - although my current adult has at times anxiously paced and hopped from one foot the the other when I have handled unhappy hens. They are usually very gentle with the hens too, and as they are not large they do little damage.

Concern on his part is certainly allowed. They sound like great roosters.

Those eyes are full of loves and nothing but. Hector will be fine....his namesake is watching him from above so he better shape up.

Sure hope so. He is such a little stud muffin, chased poor Apollo all over the yard this morning. And Apollo's two girls are following Hector around. Poor, sweet Apollo. Maybe I should put Apollo in with June, Georgie, Rita, Maretta, Neela and Alice. He runs outside at the same time they do. Maretta follows him around and intimidates him to remind him that he's not in charge, LOL. I think they'd "learn" him a thing or two and he'd have adult hens.
BTW, I'm so happy to see you posting here. Miss you, lady.


ETA: Just saw Apollo rescue Maretta from Xander. He rushed at him headlong while Xander was trying to get on Maretta's back and Maretta was struggling and yelling.

 

[speckledhen]

Hector behaved himself today. He didn't bite me when I pet him on his roost, twice. He was more into chasing Apollo away than usual and kept on for a few more seconds after Apollo jumped, cackled and ran. Hector is the man of the barnyard, certainly. Even Zara and Athena prefer him to Apollo. Athena roams with Atlas's group while on free range while Apollo and Zara wander along on the outer fringe of the group, but if Hector is out, she and Zara both gravitate toward Hector.

I feel sorry for Apollo. He gets no respect from anyone. Even Maretta, my 5 yr old EE hen, was stalking him when she was out with them, making him jump backwards when she stomped her feet at him. He needs a new group of hens who have never seen another rooster and would swoon over him (after they do their initial harassment of the newbie, that is).


Hector, the Intimidator

 

[getaclue]

@getaclue I know that carrying a rooster around doesn't work. I keep telling people that but they listen to other folks because they love to hold their former baby, I think. I started doing what I think is similar to Bee's advice, don't engage him, but push him around with your body by going into his space and with your knees (or shins, depending on how tall you and he are) just shove him aside, don't let him get away with ANY move toward you. Let him know you're the alpha, not him. Babying doesn't do a thing. If a rooster is like Isaac or Atlas, it isn't so important to stay aloof from them-they will be good boys no matter what you do or don't do because from Day 1, it was obvious it is in their nature. Apollo naturally moves out of my way, always. But a rooster like Hector, whose physical development seems ahead of his, for lack of better term, emotional development will need an approach that shows him who is really in charge. I have observed Hector in different situations and he seems intelligent enough to learn this.

I remember when one of the males of this group (could have been Hector) was bullying the others, I'd thunk him on the back of the head/neck to discipline him. That is, in a smaller way, pretty similar to how a mother hen disciplines the chicks and how roosters dominate other males.


All that said, I believe wholeheartedly that intelligence plays a factor. A dumb-as-a-rock rooster will not learn no matter what methods you employ. He'll just keep being stupid.

speckled, I'm so glad Hector didn't peck/bite today. I hope he's cured. That could easily be the only problem you ever have out of him. I think he's ultimately going to be your finest rooster. I did not know exactly what methods you used in dealing with your roosters, and didn't want to waste your time on any suggestions regarding holding, carrying, and babying Hector. While I don't follow all of her methods to the letter, I do use some of them, or similar methods, and know they work, so I was trying to offer the best information I could, that stood a better chance of success. Glad to know that you are already using similar methods. Like I mentioned, with my BA's, I've only had one "teen" with more hormones, than good sense, make a halfhearted attempt to come after me, and I dealt with it quickly. It has never happened again. For example, when I think they need dusting, I grab the rooster first. When I release him, and grab a hen, of course she squawks. You can almost see a thought bubble pop up over his head saying "I'm staying way over here, so she doesn't do that to me again. You're on your own!"

On another note, we will not be closing on the home next Wednesday. When the written offer was made, and accepted, I read a copy of it, as did everyone else involved. When everyone kept discussing the closing date, they kept saying Sept. 15. I kept asking Dh not to let them move the closing date up so much, because we would have several extra pay-days, and we might need some of that money. He mentioned it to the appropriate parties, and was told to reassure me, things were moving along, and right on schedule. Once again, I mentioned that I didn't like them moving the closing date up so much. Again, this time condescendingly, I was informed that they had not moved the closing date up, and everything was right on schedule.

Yesterday they sent Dh an email telling him to allow the better part of the day for the closing. We would all meet at the home first, around 9:30 a.m., do the final walk-thru, then we would go to one of the lawyer's offices, and finish up with the paperwork. When the paperwork was all done, we would meet the seller back at the home, and she would show us where all the gas lines, water lines, drain field, and electrical lines were located, instruct us on how to use the pool/spa heater, and equipment, teach us about using generator, etc. They were in the process of finalizing the coordination of times, and places, so everyone involved would be emailed a finalized copy of the schedule later that day. At the end of the day, we hadn't gotten a copy of the finalized schedule, but sometimes getting everyone's schedules coordinated doesn't go as quickly as expected.

By 11:30 a.m. today, there was still no confirmed closing schedule, but 2 of my cousins, and 2 of my friends were coming over the day before closing (Tues.) starting at 8:00 a.m. and would stay until 5:00 p.m to help me box up the kitchen, bathrooms, linens, etc. I was going to my doctor on Monday to get refills on my meds. We all discussed the possibility of renting the large, closed in, trailer from U-haul for a few days after the closing, and they would all come the day after closing, help load all the stuff we packed up, take it to the home, and unload it. We ladies could handle the small to medium stuff, leaving the big things for the guys to move on the weekend in a big truck. Dh was instructed, by us, to call the electric company, and have them switch the service into our name on closing day, anytime after we went to do the paperwork. Around noon maybe? What time do we go to do the paperwork? Where's that finalized schedule? Oh, and get our FiOS people out there too. Dh began sending emails, and making phone calls about the finalized schedule. No replies to anything. Ok, things are shaping up, and all we are waiting on is that stupid schedule. By 3:00 p.m. there was no reply from anyone by phone, or email about the schedule. Dh sent more emails, and made more phone calls.

Around 4:00 p.m. Dh got a phone call. When they tried to get everything coordinated, and confirmed with the seller, she complained about them moving up the closing date, and she was not ready to close that early, but would be ready by the scheduled date. When they condescendingly informed her the closing date had not
changed, but was right on schedule for the targeted date, Sept. 15, which was in the agreement, she told them to check the agreement. The secretary that typed up the document made an error on the month of the targeted closing date. Instead of Sept. 15, the secretary typed in Oct. 15. I guess she, and I were the only ones that actually read the paperwork. Everyone else was doing business as usual, sending, and receiving paperwork, but they didn't actually READ it. Uh-oh. We won't be closing on Sept. 15. So much for their prior condescending attitudes! I am experiencing mixed emotions. I was so excited, so ready for this, and KABOOM. Yes, having the extra money from the additional pay-days may be a plus, but we already had everything covered. Yes, some additional time to recover from the pneumonia is good, but with all the additional help, I wouldn't have had to work nearly as much, or as hard. I still feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me, and I've landed with a hard thud on my behind.

 

[speckledhen]

@getaclue welcome to the wonderful world of real estate where all the gears must turn or the wheel just stops. I was weary of doing everyone else's jobs for them in a deal. Sometimes I was the listing agent, sometimes agent for the buyer and on a few occasions, had both sides of the deal, but if you don't keep after every single person involved, the ball is dropped. It is exhausting. I hope all goes well and you will finally walk into your brand new home with a HUGE sigh of relief.



ETA: The minute I got up, DH came in the house and grabbed the shotgun, said two huge dogs were running next to the perimeter fence. He said they both looked well-cared for, shiny coats, etc, one black, one brown. A whitetail doe had come leaping across the pasture just before he saw them so they may have been on her trail. He held his hand to the height of the black dog and it sounds like Great Dane size, so the livestock fence wouldn't have slowed it down much. I had just moved my game camera facing that back fence yesterday and the one file on it was corrupt or something so I didn't even get the video of them I anticipated seeing, dang it! I put the SD card back in the camera and set it on photo in case something was wrong with the video part of it, just in case they come back this morning.