The Evolution of Atlas: A Breeding (and Chat) Thread

[speckledhen]

The chicks are growing so fast!! One of my favorite things is watching a broody and her babies. Fingers crossed you get the boy/girl numbers you need! Were you able to find a home for Apollo?

I had 18 out of 22 eggs hatch last week. They are in my basement in a box, something I told myself would NEVER happen again. It was DH who convinced me to do it, though. Like you, our weather has been wacky, with unseasonably warm weather, then snow and now super cold weather. I cleaned the broody coop and planned to move them out right away. DH, the softie that he is, said "oh, keep them inside for just a while." He's not the one who has to clean up after them, lol!

Exciting news about calving season, Isaiah! Be sure to share pictures!! Our sweet heifer will get here in a couple weeks!! For now, the fencing continues!!

No, Apollo is still here. He may just have to stay. There is a ban on sale of poultry right now in GA anyway, though it's limited to swaps/flea markets/auctions, as far as the order I read. AI was found in TN so they stopped sales for awhile. The order does not apply to individuals, or it's not written that way, but peeps are being told by the Dept of Ag here that it does. Apollo is certainly not ill and neither is my flock, but we get caught up in the net of caution anyway.


Druscilla is in a nest! Atlas is beside himself about it. He's been getting in the nests himself, trying to encourage the girls to lay but none have even ventured in them recently until today and he's not leaving her side. I'd be tempted to hatch one of her eggs since she is the daughter of the original Rex with my Dottie, a chick I'd like to have out of Atlas. Atlas is 3 years old so you never know how long he'll be here and Dru will be 5 yrs old herself in a few months.


ETA: I had a terrible thought in regard to the two smaller/shorter BR chicks. I'm not sure how many of you recall my run-ins with the dwarf gene in my Delaware lines. But, of course, Atlas is Isaac's grandson. I never saw any evidence that his sire, Rex, or Atlas himself carried a dwarf gene, but the short legged-ness of Piglet, as we're currently calling the little tyke, is making me wonder. And the pullet with Brandy in the bantam coop also has very short legs. The only way one of those chicks from Apollo's pen would be a dwarf is if both Apollo and one of his sisters both carry the gene, although the veterinarian in Oregon who did genetic testing on two of Isaac's daughters for his research on dwarfism in poultry said he found that one carried TWO copies of a dwarf gene while the other one had none. But, usually, it takes one gene from both parents for dwarfism to show up, like with Deacon and Sammie Jo, both progeny of Isaac and producing two dwarf males when I hatched two eggs from her.

If dwarfism is still here, I cannot keep Apollo, no matter what, unless I give him Hector's sisters and give Hector Athena and Zara, them being unrelated. I'm not sure I even want to do that. I'd rather sell Apollo and give Athena and Zara to Hector, who already has their aunt Rowena along with Thea and Jill. I don't like the dwarf gene even being here, but the only way Apollo and either Athena or Zara have the gene would be for Atlas to have it. Apollo and Zara are Ida's, who is pure Stukel Rock. I'm not sure who is Athena's mother, though.

I was trying to see if Piglet had that curved, short parrot-like beak or the mongoloid-ish eyes, but he/she is too young still. Geez. I hope not. I thought I was done with that. They do not live long. So, until I figure out if the dwarf gene is present in Apollo's pen, I am not selling eggs from them. I have only Hector's then with Jill and Ro.

Thea is still clucking like she's going broody. Maybe she's working up to it. If she does, she gets eggs from the Hector pen.

 

[itspebbl]

I hope that the dwarfism gene hasn't reappeared! To me, none of these chicks have the same look as the other two did, but like you said, it's too early to tell.
They are still adorable, though and look like they are all doing great!

 

[speckledhen]

I hope that the dwarfism gene hasn't reappeared! To me, none of these chicks have the same look as the other two did, but like you said, it's too early to tell.
They are still adorable, though and look like they are all doing great!

They are precious. I hope they aren't dwarfs. It's heartbreaking to lose them suddenly, as always happens. Rocky and Jet, Deacon's dwarf sons, were the sweetest things, so cute, but they just went so quickly, though they appeared healthy. You don't really notice the condition until they are older than these are, but I should be able to tell on Piglet very soon. I have suspended selling any eggs from Apollo's pen until I have determined if the gene is there. It's not a disease, of course, but it's not something I want to just propagate and others who have not seen it would have to go through the heartbreak.

If the gene is there, it would explain the late deaths of Athena's two chicks in the egg (which rarely happens with a broody and nice, big eggs/healthy, young parents), perhaps, and maybe these two smaller ones belong to her, if they are dwarfs. That would mean she is the carrier, not Zara, her and Apollo. Plus, it means Atlas would be a carrier as well, going back to his grandpa Isaac. I've never heard of nor seen a dwarf come out of Atlas his entire breeding life, but this gene reminds me of a roulette wheel- the gene is the ball bouncing around while the wheel spins. Think of two genes as two balls and if they land in the same slot when the wheel stops (a carrier passes the gene to 50% of the progeny, so both parents would have to be carriers and pass their gene to the same chick at the same time), you get a dwarf. If balls land in different slots, meaning one parent passed the gene and the other did not this time, you get a dwarf gene carrier, but not a dwarf. If neither passes the gene into the chick, the chick is free of the gene, but you do not know which ones are free of it and which ones are carriers of one copy. Then, there is the previously unknown two-gene carrier which will produce a dwarf every time, according to the vet in Oregon doing his study.

The problem with keeping Apollo if he is a dwarf gene carrier is that you can go one generation breeding him with unrelated hens. After that, you may have gene carriers who, when bred together, give you dwarfs again. You never know who has it or when it will pop up again. So, one generation, then you'd have to put the progeny with another unrelated bird. I don't have the space to do that.

I am probably borrowing trouble here. We'll wait and see about Piglet and his/her sister in the other coop. Shouldn't be long.

 

[1muttsfan]

I have to admit, Cyn, that the thought crossed my mind as well. I detest detrimental reccessive genes, they take so long to show up, and can be hard to weed out.

 

[speckledhen]

I have to admit, Cyn, that the thought crossed my mind as well. I detest detrimental reccessive genes, they take so long to show up, and can be hard to weed out.

I thought it was gone and it may be, but the first thought I had about this was when I noticed the short legs on the chick with Bonnie. It's not just smaller, it's short. And the beak, well, it's hard to say yet if it has that dwarf look. That chick has the male head spot, but is feathering out very quickly like a pullet. I don't recall if that was the case with Rocky and Jet. I do remember with BR dwarfs that they can appear to be pullets at first, but are usually cockerels.

Dwarfism comes in several forms. It can pop up spontaneously in a line where it's never been seen before and be just a short legged bird, not the type that my Delaware line had. Back when I had the McMurray rooster over my original flock, a dwarf male popped up from some eggs I shipped out west and it was the only one, never happened after that. It did not have the parrot beak, was just very small/short and lived longer than the type I've experienced does. It did look like a pullet at the beginning, never developed a big comb/wattles, but was obviously a cockerel later on.

One problem is that you cannot peg a dwarf gene carrier. Of Isaac's two daughters that were gene-tested, the big chunky one was the one who had two copies of the gene. The smaller bodied hen had none. The vet who did the testing said to never breed the first one as she would always produce dwarfs, regardless of the rooster over her.

One of my first thoughts was that if this gene is still lurking in Atlas's bloodline via Isaac, it's a good thing I still have Hector, sucky tail carriage or not. Rowena is with him and she is Atlas's sister, so I have no idea if she has the gene, but I would never know it until their progeny was bred together and down the line we got a dwarf. Apollo could be a free range rooster and he can take over for Atlas when the big guy is gone and get the extra hens in that larger pen as head of the layer flock if I don't sell him.


ETA: Adding pictures of the 4 week old chick, "Piglet", in the back. That beak and head shape are looking a tad suspicious to me in this picture. Reminds me of Deacon's sons. If that is the case, we have a royal upset in our apple cart.



The 3 week old BRs with Brandy. This one is harder to call. Not sure. Couldn't get a good comparison photo with the brother.





and the parents out free ranging today. First photo is Athena.


Zara out in front now. They are a year old now.

 

[speckledhen]

For those who don't remember Rocky(black) and Jet, here they are.

 

[1muttsfan]

A short life but a happy one

 

[1muttsfan]

BTW Cyn, nice 10 year badge!

 

[speckledhen]

A short life but a happy one

So, does it appear to be a dwarf to you, Mary?

BTW Cyn, nice 10 year badge!

Thanks, yeah, been around awhile.

 

[1muttsfan]

I also think a little more time would help before deciding.