The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

Hmm.   Had to ponder this a bit.   Your first sentence seems to indicate that a "homestead bird" is a bad thing, but it is in fact what the founders you frequently cite were trying to develop when they created the breed back in the 1840s and standardized in November of 1898. At least that is my interpretation of, and I quote from, your own website article:

      "It was the passion of these early members to have a dual-purpose large fowl chicken.  They decided they wanted this breed to have a brick-shaped frame - giving it a large egg laying capacity but still sustaining lots of meat for eating.  In addition, the objective was to have a pullet that would weight about six pounds and a cockerel that would weigh about eight pounds at eight months of age.  The final goal of the early founders of this breed was to have a beautiful bird, which would be even in color, such as the current Rhode Island Reds, with lustrous crimson shaded feathers."

Is that not what you and others are breeding for now?  I plan to.   The only place we differ is the TIMING of setting up our breeding pens.  I set up fall/autumn breeding pens because I ALSO want chickens that have a tendency/trait to continue laying throughout the winter and/or moult later.   It is a heritable trait, just like color and type.  Given our temperate Novembers it works for me.  And apparently it will work for anyone who wants autumn eggs/chicks.   I'm not planning to cross breed RIRs into production reds...that's been done  by others already...and I'm not impressed.

You live even further south than I and could easily breed in the autumn but you don't /didn't because (I assume) your focus is/was showing which times the peak maturity of the stock with the show season.   In other words the chickens are bred on the exhibitor's schedule, not their own.  Not a crime certainly but, IMHO, not the best way to select for late season egg laying if that is one's goal --- and it is mine.  I don't have chickens for just the pleasure of watching them run around, though that is a bonus. I'm a small scale farmer and businessperson.   We sell produce (veggies, herbs, flowers, honey, jams/jellies) and eggs in season as well as baked goods, particularly around the holidays, for which I need eggs.   Chickens here are certainly pretty (at least I think so) but they also need to work.

I am also confused by your comment about the scope of this thread.  I understood it to be about "heritage" or traditional type RIR as opposed to production reds.   That's what I have been referring to and what I've been reading and learning about over the past 578 pages.


I have no problem with what the "Homesteading" crowd does with their chickens. As a matter of fact I have no problem with what anyone's prerogatives are with their chickens as long as the take care of them and treat them in a humane manner. It is the "Homesteading" crowd that always seems to criticize the "Show" crowd.
I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of what "we" do with our chickens and what they are capable of. My birds are laying right now and they will lay some throughout the winter albeit sporadically like you suggested earlier "one or two eggs a week" but if you give them the proper amount of light during the months in which they naturally slow down they will lay as if it were spring. Yes we do that so that the birds are as old and mature as possible as cockerels and Pullets for fall shows. All we are trying to do is jump start their natural spring laying cycle so that we can hatch earlier than normal. Some may think that this stresses the chickens but it doesn't because when you take the lights off in late spring they slow down laying and go through their natural laying rest period as if it were their summer slow down.
You made some pretty pointed comments as if they were fact and they are not. The quote I made earlier about "only laying in spring and summer" is simply not true. We have not bred these birds to genetically do that as you suggested. If left alone they will lay just as they were intended to 100 years ago. So there again is my point...you shouldn't make assumptions about things you have no experience with.

Matt
 
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Oh my, here I go again.
First off, I'm not quoting anyone's posts. I've read them all and just am adding my two cents worth. Yes, I too have been in the show world for 30+ years but not with poultry. I also raised American Singer Canaries and we always put lights on them in Dec and had our breeding done by the end of March first of April. It was for the similar reason. Because the males would be singing come show season.

Now to the chickens. My reds that are of laying age are laying the same now as they were a month or so ago. In fact my reds are outlaying my mixed layer flock that I have lights on from 5 AM to 9 PM. I absolutely love these reds, I've never shown them but with the different lines that I have, I know that I have some of the same genes in my birds that some of the top show folks have. I am very proud to have these birds. I read some stuff on this forum that I do not totally agree with and that is okay, we all have our opinions. Do I agree with everything that the backyard breeders do? No But I'm sure there have been things that I've said that some of them and the best breeders don't agree with either. I try very hard to pick my words very carefully on here when talking about the breeders that show their birds or choose not to show them.
I am more then willing to give up a few eggs a year in order to have these gorgeous reds with the beautiful color, type and disposition. I remember when we had the reds at home years ago, we never knew when that big old red rooster was going to sneak up behind us and give us a real thrill when he would hit us from behind. lol
I love looking at all the pictures that folks post on here and am very happy when someone posts that they won at a show. Again, I don't show but believe me, if I ever did and I was to win a big show, I would probably have it on CNN. If it takes starting them a little sooner or later, go for it. If you choose not to show your birds, good for you. There is no law that says just because we have great birds that we do or do not have to show them. I do know that the show folks will try to breed their birds to the SOP and my opinion is that this is what we all should be doing. I am surprised how some of my reds lay compared to the way that some told me that they would be. Gosh, I figured I would have to keep 75 hens in order to have enough eggs to eat. I have found that everything we here is not always true with these birds.
Okay, enough of my going on. Enjoy what you have and what you choose to do with them and whether you choose to show or not, that is your business. I thank all of you that have kept these birds going long enough for me to get mine and I will certainly do my best to keep them up to what they are to be.
 
I have no problem with what the "Homesteading" crowd does with their chickens. As a matter of fact I have no problem with what anyone's prerogatives are with their chickens as long as the take care of them and treat them in a humane manner. It is the "Homesteading" crowd that always seems to criticize the "Show" crowd.
I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of what "we" do with our chickens and what they are capable of. My birds are laying right now and they will lay some throughout the winter albeit sporadically like you suggested earlier "one or two eggs a week" but if you give them the proper amount of light during the months in which they naturally slow down they will lay as if it were spring. Yes we do that so that the birds are as old and mature as possible as cockerels and Pullets for fall shows. All we are trying to do is jump start their natural spring laying cycle so that we can hatch earlier than normal. Some may think that this stresses the chickens but it doesn't because when you take the lights off in late spring they slow down laying and go through their natural laying rest period as if it were their summer slow down.
You made some pretty pointed comments as if they were fact and they are not. The quote I made earlier about "only laying in spring and summer" is simply not true. We have not bred these birds to genetically do that as you suggested. If left alone they will lay just as they were intended to 100 years ago. So there again is my point...you shouldn't make assumptions about things you have no experience with.

Matt

I don't want to make this an ad hominem argument; I think we're talking at cross purposes here.

The statement "only laying in spring and summer" was made as an oversimplification meant to make a point, not a fact. Every hen is different and has her own schedule even within breeds. I am not saying that winter laying has been bred out of the RIR unless they are under lights.

I know the purpose of using lights in the winter, as I stated before, I've been around chickens for a bit.

Let me try again (last time) to make this as non-argumentative as possible - a case of what would you do.

Let's say you have two hens that are identically as close to ideal as you have ever bred. December rolls around and one of them stops laying -- but it's time to set up the pens. You switch on those lights and they both ramp up production. Now lets say you can only hatch from one --- which would you choose? My choice would be the hen that didn't stop laying before the lights went on. Over a period of time (years/generations), selecting this type of hen should get you to the point where you won't need lights to get a decent number of eggs to hatch.
 
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I am surprised how some of my reds lay compared to the way that some told me that they would be. Gosh, I figured I would have to keep 75 hens in order to have enough eggs to eat.

I am happy to hear that. Looks like it will make my pen choices tougher instead of easier, but in a good way! I really can't wait to add the RIR to our flock.

Off to bed now.
 
My observations of years of livestock breeding... hopefullly this is unruffle some feathers...

I suspect after reading all the posts of the last few days that many who have been there, done that have realized that you simply can't reinvent the wheel.
People who are new to the breed and expect to "improve" a line of high quality by immediately making changes are not only slapping that breeder in the face (possibly without realizing it), but have not displayed that they have the ability to maintain quality - let alone improve something that is such a high quality already.
Most breeders... even those with experience... would do well to take a line as old as the Underwoods and simply "maintain" that quality.
Trying to "improve" a line like strikes me as overly ambitious for anyone who has not developed and maintained their own line to begin with.
That said... I admire ambition... I simply recommend caution when proclaiming that ambition.
Claiming to want to make "changes" right out of the box would easily offend a breeder who has worked for years to achieve the quality they have. I don't care if those changes are seen by some as good or bad... it's simply way to easy to offend people, especially with the written word.

My goal (which is an ambitious one) over the next 5 years with my RC Underwoods is to be able to look and them (and with the help of several folks on here who have already helped me so much) and be able to say... WOW, I haven't screwed them up.

Acquiring a quality line does not make a person a quality breeder.
Quality breeders "evolve" without words and by their actions and results.
There are many experienced breeders on this thread who have those results... those of us who have not yet earned those stripes would do well to listen and take their advice.
If you listen long enough it becomes very obvious who has really been there and who is blowing smoke.
And I assure you... anyone who attempts to divide any breed of animal into "show" vs "homestead" (not the terms I'd use but will repeat what has been said here), is in for less than quality results.
While the homesteaders may know what they want, they frequently lack the breeding experience to acquire it while maintaining quality. Oh, they can acquire it... but not loosing quality while they do? You'd have to prove it to me. They would do well to listen to the show people.
While the show people know what wins in the show ring, they would do well to listen to the homesteaders to assure they are working towards what wins in the barn.
I chose HRIR for two reasons... mostly because they are what my great grandfather raised and showed all the way to the 1930's, but also because that void between beauty and function was not as vast as with many breeds.
Let's not create a bigger void and ruin that.
 
My observations of years of livestock breeding... hopefullly this is unruffle some feathers...

I suspect after reading all the posts of the last few days that many who have been there, done that have realized that you simply can't reinvent the wheel.
People who are new to the breed and expect to "improve" a line of high quality by immediately making changes are not only slapping that breeder in the face (possibly without realizing it), but have not displayed that they have the ability to maintain quality - let alone improve something that is such a high quality already.
Most breeders... even those with experience... would do well to take a line as old as the Underwoods and simply "maintain" that quality.
Trying to "improve" a line like strikes me as overly ambitious for anyone who has not developed and maintained their own line to begin with.
That said... I admire ambition... I simply recommend caution when proclaiming that ambition.
Claiming to want to make "changes" right out of the box would easily offend a breeder who has worked for years to achieve the quality they have. I don't care if those changes are seen by some as good or bad... it's simply way to easy to offend people, especially with the written word.

My goal (which is an ambitious one) over the next 5 years with my RC Underwoods is to be able to look and them (and with the help of several folks on here who have already helped me so much) and be able to say... WOW, I haven't screwed them up.

Acquiring a quality line does not make a person a quality breeder.
Quality breeders "evolve" without words and by their actions and results.
There are many experienced breeders on this thread who have those results... those of us who have not yet earned those stripes would do well to listen and take their advice.
If you listen long enough it becomes very obvious who has really been there and who is blowing smoke.
And I assure you... anyone who attempts to divide any breed of animal into "show" vs "homestead" (not the terms I'd use but will repeat what has been said here), is in for less than quality results.
While the homesteaders may know what they want, they frequently lack the breeding experience to acquire it while maintaining quality. Oh, they can acquire it... but not loosing quality while they do? You'd have to prove it to me. They would do well to listen to the show people.
While the show people know what wins in the show ring, they would do well to listen to the homesteaders to assure they are working towards what wins in the barn.
I chose HRIR for two reasons... mostly because they are what my great grandfather raised and showed all the way to the 1930's, but also because that void between beauty and function was not as vast as with many breeds.
Let's not create a bigger void and ruin that.
I agree 100%. I always ask myself I'm I staying true to line that I was provided with after nearly losing mine.
VIVI
 
My observations of years of livestock breeding... hopefullly this is unruffle some feathers...

Admirable goal, hopefully you are successful.

People who are new to the breed and expect to "improve" a line of high quality by immediately making changes are not only slapping that breeder in the face (possibly without realizing it), but have not displayed that they have the ability to maintain quality - let alone improve something that is such a high quality already.
Most breeders... even those with experience... would do well to take a line as old as the Underwoods and simply "maintain" that quality.
Trying to "improve" a line like strikes me as overly ambitious for anyone who has not developed and maintained their own line to begin with.

Perhaps I'm still not "getting it" but perhaps (and it seems that way to me) others aren't trying to understand what I'm trying to say. In no way did I say I would to IMPROVE what is already a quality line of birds; BUT as a breeder you've got to SELECT for certain things when you AIM to go forward. Most commonly it is the characteristics set out in the SOP like body shape, tail angle, color, feather type, size/weight. Then some go further to select for temperament -- friendly roosters and hens - or other characteristics, like setter/non-setter and production i.e. egg and/or meat. That is what I am doing.

Had I said I was only breeding those cock birds who treat their hens gently and don't attack my grandchildren, or a Judge's hand for that matter, all other things being equal, would I have been pilloried for daring to change the characteristics of the quality birds the source breeder has spent year on? Comments like they are friendly enough, don't try and humanize them, cock birds are the way they are for a reason, etc., etc.

On the other hand, one can use the scatter gun approach, breed everything and cull hard. Takes more time and a big freezer or large market of buyers. Of course, if one is encouraging beginners or 4Hers, you want to give them the best you can. But if you don't SELECT FOR something, how do you plan to cull (outside of the obvious DQs and undesirable traits?

That said... I admire ambition... I simply recommend caution when proclaiming that ambition.
Claiming to want to make "changes" right out of the box would easily offend a breeder who has worked for years to achieve the quality they have. I don't care if those changes are seen by some as good or bad... it's simply way to easy to offend people, especially with the written word.

And I assure you... anyone who attempts to divide any breed of animal into "show" vs "homestead" (not the terms I'd use but will repeat what has been said here), Smart gal. I'm still learning...there are some written words that are apparently red flags here - homesteader being one of them is in for less than quality results. I hope it doesn't seem that I'm attempting to divide the BREED into show v. homestead. Been there, seen that in the dog world --- not pretty and again, counter-productive. Absolutely not my goal at all. I plan to show locally to keep barn blindness at bay, but I'm not planning to do the show circuits. I absolutely do want to MAINTAIN and carry FORWARD the egg production that must have been in existence in the days before electricity and refrigeration and lightbulbs so it is one of MY selection criteria --- NOT the only one -- which means I will have fertile ggs or chicks in November instead of December/January and will still continue to get eggs for eating beyond that. My ultimate goal is to move away from maintaining separate layer and breeder flocks and have all breeder flocks that are also production flocks. End of story. All I"m going to write.

While the homesteaders may know what they want, they frequently lack the breeding experience to acquire it while maintaining quality. Oh, they can acquire it... but not loosing quality while they do? You'd have to prove it to me. They would do well to listen to the show people.
While the show people know what wins in the show ring, they would do well to listen to the homesteaders to assure they are working towards what wins in the barn.



Now one last item to address in case anyone thinks my ORIGINAL comment was a personal attack on Mr. Blosl or show folks.
I admire greatly all of the work Mr. Blosl has done in starting this thread, all of the information he has contributed since and his efforts to assist breed newbies. I have an entire binder of printed materials from both this thread, his website and in the Poultry Press so that I don't lose any of it. Reading this thread has been INVALUABLE in both RIR specifics and poultry breeding in general. Just saying.


Done now...back to just reading and lurking.
 
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Quote: I suppose I use what you call the scattergun approach (although I have my list of criteria I am not ever willing to sacrifice something I can't easily get back just to improve one trait). Breeding and genetics takes patience and years of thoughtfulness. It is not done in just one or two seasons.
I refuse to sell culls... of any livestock.
I get asked this all the time... won't you sell me that beautiful cockerel over there?
No, he is not for sale.
Why not?
He needs better xxxxx.
So? Doesn't that mean I can get him for less money?
NO... that means he should be taken out of the gene pool if there is a better alternative.

I raise a lot of livestock each year... hundreds of lambs, cattle, and of course poultry.
That said, what I end up with at the end of the year is rarely more than what I started the year with... but I hope (even if it's ever so slight) an improvement, but at the very least each year the most important goal to not take a step backward.
Because breeding is not always predictable, this doesn't always happen... but making improvements when you have high quality stock is just lagniappe.
And recognizing a step backward is the hardest task of all. It requires not only knowledge but self honesty.

I breed only the best I can produce... I "might" sell the 2nd best... but won't hesitate to eat them either.
And beyond second best I refuse to sell for anything but meat.
So yes... I sell a lot of meat.
I tell people all the time... I am not in the business of raising meat... I am in the business of raising quality forage, I simply use my livestock to convert that forage to profit.

If we continually breed 2nd rate, we will produce 2nd rate. I have a hard time convincing a lot of livestock breeders how important this is.
I had one guy this year who wanted a breeding ram... any boy would do... sigh....
He said he had nice ewes... he didn't need anything special in a ram.
DUH!!! If his ewes are truly that nice it takes only one crappy ram to produce a lot of crappy offspring.
WHY? Why not ask me about each specific lamb's forage conversion, twinning rate, growth rate, etc.
Your ram is 50% of next year's genetics... why would you breed to anything but the best you have access to?
Same applies for all livestock... (or people for that matter LOL)
 
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Short answer... select for everything... culling is easy when you only keep the best one.
wink.png

That's what I did with all the guys I dated... and it paid off... big time...
Sorry gals, I got the best one...
celebrate.gif

It's not rocket science... it's just a willingness to not settle. (and I tell all my daughters the same thing).
 

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