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And now to tread on dangerous ground and actually try and converse with NYRED without making myself look stupid , smile.
He will forget more than I will ever know about poultry. From what I discern, it seems the Sussex and the RIR "basically" are
the same type of bird? Dual-purpose breeds which are also known for their egg laying abilities? I hope I am right here.
Anyway, back in the day, the Light Sussex was the renowned egg layer of the breed. Gave the RIR a real run for its money.
We are talking 1920's here. Anyway back then there were 3 British brothers named Broomhead who were renowned in British
poultry circles. One of them was William White Broomhead who was a Sussex expert and judge, edited a volume of the British
Poultry Standard and went on to become President of the British Poultry Club.
It was just after the end of WWII. Poultrymen and women on both sides of the Pond were being encouraged by their governments
to go into poultry as a business. The Club saw breed type falling as these folk reproduced birds without knowledge of type so they
decided to put out a series of booklets on correct breed type and how to breed that breed. The first one is on the Light Sussex and
written by William White Broomhead whose literary gift was taking a complex issues and making it simple for the masses.
So why we care if we are discussing RIR? Well in the first pages of his 8 page exposition, he gives the mathematical dimensions
for a super layer. I found it fascinating, considering the gentleman's credentials. Have seen a lot of measurements given as "so many
fingers wide here and there" on the carcass. Comparisons of ratios between one body part and the other. To actually post the numbers
seemed brash to me except for the elite qualifications of the gentleman providing them. Don't know if this would be helpful to RIR in
particular, but thought I would mention in in passing as both Light Sussex and RIR are basically the same type of dual-purpose fowl.
At least they were back then.
Best Regards,
Karen in western PA, USA.

Excerpt: "The Light Sussex" by W.W. Broomhead, Page 6,
"Selecting For "Egg Points" "
" As I say on "Poultry For the Many," when the poultry-keeper is selecting his birds for laying qualities there are two "sections" he has to consider, viz., capacity (the width across the hip-bones, and the depth from the back to the posterior end of the breast-bone or keel, including the abdominal cavity), and capability (texture of the flesh, feather, bone, and head points). The measurements of the ideal, or so-called "super" layer are given as 4 1/2 in. between the point of the pelvic bone and the posterior end of the breast-bone or keel, 2 1/2 half inches between the points of the 2 pelvic bones- the fine bones attached to the bottom of the right and left hips and whose points can be distinctly felt and often seen in a good layer-- and 1 3/4 in. from the socket (underneath) of the tail bone (or "parson's nose") to the pelvic bone point. These latter bones must be fine (thin) and straight; but while the light Sussex is strong legged it is not, of necessity, coarse boned. Granted, the shanks are not like "pipe stems"; never the less, I have handled Sussex pullets having remarkably fine "body" bones, if I may so term them. Fineness of bone is a good point in a layer, while coarseness is a defect even in an exhibition specimen". end quote - Then he goes on to discss capability .
 
Last edited:
NYREDS said:
It's never "dumb luck"; if it's the result you were looking for it's always because of your skill as a breeder. :-] Can't answer you question with any certainty though. In Reds some type factors seem to be linked to some colour factors so that may be the case here. In any event it sounds like your breeding decisions have been good ones since they are leading you in the right direction.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the answer. I have really put a lot of thought and effort into my matings. It is a good feeling to see positive progress.

Another question in regards to a 23 week old cockerel. This cockerel has the best type of all the birds I raised this year. Very brick shaped, long back, 5 point comb, and good balanced leg placement. He has been my favorite for several months.
However it now appears as though he is going to have a hole at the top of his primary tail feathers. Like the top feather on both side is not going to be there.
I am very inclined to keep him and mate him to a couple of hens that have exceptional tails.
Would this be a mistake or the proper way to correct this?
The mating he came from did not show this trait.

Thanks
Ron
 
Robert Blosl said:






900x900px-LL-3e362150_100_1109.jpeg


Went to Matt1616 house to look at his Reds yesterday these are a few pictures I took. They did not enjoy being photographed so what you see is what I got on the run.
Click to expand...
 
3riverschick said:
And now to tread on dangerous ground and actually try and converse with NYRED without making myself look stupid , smile.
He will forget more than I will ever know about poultry. From what I discern, it seems the Sussex and the RIR "basically" are
the same type of bird? Dual-purpose breeds which are also known for their egg laying abilities? I hope I am right here.
Anyway, back in the day, the Light Sussex was the renowned egg layer of the breed. Gave the RIR a real run for its money.
We are talking 1920's here. Anyway back then there were 3 British brothers named Broomhead who were renowned in British
poultry circles. One of them was William White Broomhead who was a Sussex expert and judge, edited a volume of the British
Poultry Standard and went on to become President of the British Poultry Club.
It was just after the end of WWII. Poultrymen and women on both sides of the Pond were being encouraged by their governments
to go into poultry as a business. The Club saw breed type falling as these folk reproduced birds without knowledge of type so they
decided to put out a series of booklets on correct breed type and how to breed that breed. The first one is on the Light Sussex and
written by William White Broomhead whose literary gift was taking a complex issues and making it simple for the masses.
So why we care if we are discussing RIR? Well in the first pages of his 8 page exposition, he gives the mathematical dimensions
for a super layer. I found it fascinating, considering the gentleman's credentials. Have seen a lot of measurements given as "so many
fingers wide here and there" on the carcass. Comparisons of ratios between one body part and the other. To actually post the numbers
seemed brash to me except for the elite qualifications of the gentleman providing them. Don't know if this would be helpful to RIR in
particular, but thought I would mention in in passing as both Light Sussex and RIR are basically the same type of dual-purpose fowl.
At least they were back then.
Best Regards,
Karen in western PA, USA.

Excerpt: "The Light Sussex" by W.W. Broomhead, Page 6,
"Selecting For "Egg Points" "
" As I say on "Poultry For the Many," when the poultry-keeper is selecting his birds for laying qualities there are two "sections" he has to consider, viz., capacity (the width across the hip-bones, and the depth from the back to the posterior end of the breast-bone or keel, including the abdominal cavity), and capability (texture of the flesh, feather, bone, and head points). The measurements of the ideal, or so-called "super" layer are given as 4 1/2 in. between the point of the pelvic bone and the posterior end of the breast-bone or keel, 2 1/2 half inches between the points of the 2 pelvic bones- the fine bones attached to the bottom of the right and left hips and whose points can be distinctly felt and often seen in a good layer-- and 1 3/4 in. from the socket (underneath) of the tail bone (or "parson's nose") to the pelvic bone point. These latter bones must be fine (thin) and straight; but while the light Sussex is strong legged it is not, of necessity, coarse boned. Granted, the shanks are not like "pipe stems"; never the less, I have handled Sussex pullets having remarkably fine "body" bones, if I may so term them. Fineness of bone is a good point in a layer, while coarseness is a defect even in an exhibition specimen". end quote - Then he goes on to discss capability .
Click to expand...


Back in the early part of the 20th century Red breeders went in 2 directions. Some selected solely for production & some at least primarily for type. This is why we now have Production Reds & Standard bred Reds. Before that there were a number of Red breeders that selected for both properties & produced birds that were both productive & proper in appearance. There's no reason this approach couldn't be successful again.
I think a valid criticism of contemporary show breeders is that they pay little or no attention to productivity. IMO one of the most important responsibilities a chicken has is to lay eggs. It's hard to reproduce beautiful birds that don't lay. I've heard numerous stories from people who bought beautiful birds that never laid an egg. In fact it happened to me twice. When my children were little they all had their own chickens that they cared for & showed. One of them was interested in Japanese Bantams & another in Cornish Bantams. I got them each a pair of their desired birds from some successful show breeders. Neither pair ever produced an egg. Kept them for a year & a half & sent them to an auction. I remember a few years ago seeing a very small pair of Call Ducks for sale at a show. I asked the owner how many eggs he thought they'd lay in a year & he said he wouldn't want to guarantee they'd lay any eggs. Calls & OEGBs are are good [or bad] examples of this problem. Both are being bred so small they're hard to reproduce. I know several OEGB breeders who do well in shows but say they only get 10-15 eggs per year from their hens.
I think it's entirely possible to improve productivity in Reds or any other breed while maintaining appearance if breeders paid more attention to productivity. However, I'm not sure the Hogan Method could be used to reach this end since it concerns itself with productivity w/o attention to type & colour. That said, I haven't actually studied this method so I'm not sure it wouldn't be useful. I'm not sure selection, by any criteria, could result in Standard bred Reds that are as productive as Production Reds but I certainly believe productivity in Reds & other breeds could be improved through the selection process.
 
J. Ralph Brazelton had a very productive line of exhibition Orpingtons. He trap nested and only hatched from hens that produced 200+ eggs in their first year of lay. They also had to meet the Standard. Bob or Walt should be able to better explain how Ralph did this. It was with Orpingtons, but the process should work for RIR as well.
 
I wish I wasn't technologically ignorant, then I could post pictures easily. In the mean time I must depend on my ability to describe my concern.
Should my 21 week old RIR pullets which have lost their juvenile feathers have black on their tail coverts? --(see figure 4 on pg.15,of the 2010 Standard; tail coverts #26).
Their main tail feathers #25 (on the same page, same figure), are green / black as they are supposed to be, but several rows of their tail coverts also have black centers which are edged with dark red. The Standard mentions color of male tail coverts but when refering to hens it only mentions their main tail feathers. (pg 52).
 
henpeckedmuch said:
I wish I wasn't technologically ignorant, then I could post pictures easily. In the mean time I must depend on my ability to describe my concern.
Should my 21 week old RIR pullets which have lost their juvenile feathers have black on their tail coverts? --(see figure 4 on pg.15,of the 2010 Standard; tail coverts #26).
Their main tail feathers #25 (on the same page, same figure), are green / black as they are supposed to be, but several rows of their tail coverts also have black centers which are edged with dark red. The Standard mentions color of male tail coverts but when refering to hens it only mentions their main tail feathers. (pg 52).
Click to expand...

Back in post #1521 and 1522 NYREDS and Bob both commented on the tail issue if you didn't get that.

I can't help you much here as I'm still trying to learn a lot about these Heritage reds myself. This is my first go-a-round with them other than my factory/hatchery stock I have bred up to the way I liked them to be for pretty layers and such.

Jeff
 

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