The Heritage Rhode Island Red Site

[docdandc]

I have a question that is more aimed to (Bob as I call the RIR man and NYREDS who I know is a judge.) Please don't think that I am picking on you guys and don't jump down my throat over my question.
First off, Is or is not the RIR supposed to have a degree of raise to the tails? I notice on some of the pictures, that the tails are really flat with the back.
I'm going to post 2 pictures, these are my boys, because I don't want to nit pick at someone else's birds and cause any bad talk. I can say for sure that the different way that they are standing makes them look more brick like. In these two pictures, the first bird is a little narrower in the back but when standing right, his back is as straight as it could be. Just a little more rise to the tail.


The next boy is heavier, broader in the back but not as straight and his tail is a little lower on the degree. I'm not asking you to judge my birds, just using them to explain what I'm asking. I don't care if you judge them though. I just took these pictures a couple of days ago. They are right about 7 1/2 months old. Anyone here can give an opinion, I don't mean that only Bob or Bill can answer.

I think these two birds look better now then just a few weeks ago with the last pictures. I hope their hens are looking like good matchups also.

 

[NYREDS]

I have a question that is more aimed to (Bob as I call the RIR man and NYREDS who I know is a judge.) Please don't think that I am picking on you guys and don't jump down my throat over my question.
First off, Is or is not the RIR supposed to have a degree of raise to the tails? I notice on some of the pictures, that the tails are really flat with the back.
I'm going to post 2 pictures, these are my boys, because I don't want to nit pick at someone else's birds and cause any bad talk. I can say for sure that the different way that they are standing makes them look more brick like. In these two pictures, the first bird is a little narrower in the back but when standing right, his back is as straight as it could be. Just a little more rise to the tail.


The next boy is heavier, broader in the back but not as straight and his tail is a little lower on the degree. I'm not asking you to judge my birds, just using them to explain what I'm asking. I don't care if you judge them though. I just took these pictures a couple of days ago. They are right about 7 1/2 months old. Anyone here can give an opinion, I don't mean that only Bob or Bill can answer.

Male tails should be 20 degrees above horizontal, females 10 degrees. Judging birds from pictures is difficult to say the least but of these 2 birds I prefer the second one because of his width of body. I suspect that properly posed his top line is just fine. The first bird obviously narrows toward the rear & his tail angle may be a bit too high [can't find a protractor].

 

[Mumsy]

I got a phone call this afternoon from Jim Volk and he wanted to tell me that Jim Adkins judged the show there and was braging about a Rhode Isalnd Red he put on Champion Row a week ago in Flordia. He said it was from my old blood lines. Which was Matt 1616 male we pictured a few days ago. He said Jim was going crazy over this male and really liked him.

Jim Won Champion large fowl of the show at Centralia on a White Rock male.

He told me the meat cutter from up near seattle showed some birds he dont know who owned this bird you photograped. He did not win big but he still has pretty good type for me.

Many of the Washington show guys have reds from different strains and cross them then they dont look worth a darn.

I told him in a year or so you will see some very nice large fowl Reds at this show. That is if we can get some young started chicks to Washington this spring.

Nice to talk to him.

Matt the word is getting out by word of mouth. Thats great. bob

Thank you Bob for getting this information. I hope I'm on a list to get some going on Whidbey Island this Spring too. I want to start with a good strain right from the start.
There was a couple of stunning White Rock males that stopped people in their tracks. I wonder if one of these were Jim's winner?

 

[Robert Blosl]

This was the best R I Red Schilling ever saw in 1927 Mohawk V. Sold to Mr.s Donadson in 1929 for $150. This is the bird I have been chashing in my old line for 30 years and now in my bantam line.

A recent winning Red Bantam in Canada look at his tail angle a ckl.

This is the Schilling cut of the 1950s I have fixed in my head.

In regards to the Good Reds with back that may not be 20 degrees as young ckls. Here is or lays the problem. Are we judging a R I Red from the black and white picture of Schilling and using this picture to pick our ideal young ckl at age of 10 months. If you say yes we do to the letter.

Then ask how old is the picture in the black and white picture. If you asked Art Schilling he would say this is a 18 month old cock bird.

He then would say a ckl is a little different at a young age and he may not have a 20 degree lift and if he does or maybe a 25 degree lift what would he look like at 18 months or three years of age.

Schilling would then take you down the Madison Square Garden Red Island Red Isle and say see this male in fifth place. See how short is back is and his tail is at a 35 degree angle. Look at this hen she is shaped like a box. She is not brick shaped. This is what you get when you cockerels and pullets sometimes are a little short in body and have correct or a little higher lift in the tail than say this male who is first cock bird from Harold Tompkins line. Look at this cock bird. He has the brick shape, good flat top line about ten inches in length, his back is even in width about seven to eight inches wide and even all the way to the oil gland. Look at his tail it is symmetrical not bushy and fits the shape of his body much like the picture I drew for the APA standard in 1952.

Allow some growing in your young birds. In some strains you may have to have just a little more height in leg so as a cock bird they settle.

Look at these young Reds as young 17 year old boys. Then look at them when they are 24 years old they fill out.

In breeding my Rhode Island Reds I tried to do something that Harold Tompkins did. He had his New York line out in the boon docks away from the main barn. He did not take people there to look at his birds. He had many cockerels and pullets out there growing and then moltting but he used these birds as cocks and hens in his matings. He wanted to see if the sweet quite looking pullets molted back and where brick shaped, lean looking and tight feathered as hens. If they did he would mate them to his top males. If the cockerels came back as cock birds with the correct 20 degree lift in the tail or maybe even a 15 degree and he still looked fantastic as he did as a cockerel he would use them in the breeding pen.

In a nut shell Schilling would tell you when you go to a breeders house go and ask him could I look at your old cock birds and hens that you got laying around. If you see one or two hens that you think are pullets you got a 500dollar bird. The same as a cock bird if he looks like Matt 1616 ckl at age five years old and you think he is a cockerel you got a one in a million R I Red.

When I was at Mr. Reeses house 30 years ago. He took me to his pen one to pen four breeding pens. Then he said I will take you to a pen where I have a pair mating. I walked in and looked at a male and reached down and grabbed him and said to Mr. Reese this is the best R I Red Cockerel I ever seen. He said Bob he is a six year old Cock bird. I said what a cockerel Mr. Reese he said look at his spurs. I did they where like six inches long. I said this cant be. He said he is the best Red I ever raised. I said do you have any hens like him his sisters. Nope I sold them all to the money people. When I got my start at Dry Creek Farms in Fairhope Alabama. I asked Nancy where are you hens at. She took me to them and I saw a pullet that drove me nuts.

Found out latter again I was wrong she was a six year old hen they bought from Mr. Reese and the sister and the best one to the old six year old cock bird. I got her and three of her males one I called War Eagle, another called High Steeper and another called Houdini because I could not keep him in a pen.

I got a one eyed pulled that looked like the pullet in the pen Mr. Reese had with that old cock bird. I pushed these five birds for four years to try to get that old gene to the surface. I did on my fifth year and that is how the Mohawk gene got started.

This male that Matt produced 30 years latter in my back yard is a dead ringer to that old cock bird I saw 30 years ago. There tails do not have a high lift but they have everything else you want in a Red.

Now ask yourself what is the point cut for not having a 20 degree lift.? What is a point cut for a Rhode Island Red bantam with a short back and a elevated back and tail like a Plymouth Rock. These are the Reds that are winning today. When I score them they get about 92 points. Yet they may be champion SCCL of the show or best RI Red over a good large fowl bird with correct type.

I went long into this but this is a educational thread to share the secrets I learned from Mr. Reese and my study of Schilling and Harold Tompkins.

Some times to get a bird you want will take ten to twenty years. I have seen super star breeders take five years to produce a super Buff Brahma Cock bird. Once they reach this goal they take on another challenge like producing a Delaware or something. Great question. I asked it on my second year and this is kind of what Mr. Reese told me along with Kenneth Bowles respnse was.

The White Rock you pictured I think was Jim's Bird. They stand out when you see a good one. They are the easy est large fowl to breed and get to perfection I have seen and a great breed to practice with to learn how to breed good Rhode Island Reds. bob I hope you will have the best R I Reds in Washington State next year and then I am going to teach you how to breed them for type and color. One day I can return to my home state and see your birds at a show and say we did it.

 

[immyjay54]

Thank you all for your comments.
Yes, the first cockerel is a little narrow in the back going back to the tail. I'm planning on taking him out of this pen and putting him with one of my hens that is real broad and see how their young are. If the young don't end up with the wider backs then I will cull this fella. Don't know if he will fill out any more by summer or not.
I'm just trying to get all the info I need since I have 3 of these guys and some pretty nice girls to start with here in the next few months. I really do appreciate everything that you guys/gals tell me when I ask a question. I'm hoping that between now and 2014 I will have some pretty nice birds.
Again, thanks to all of you for the information.
Jim

 

[immyjay54]

It seems that the chickens are like so many other animals/fowl. As I've said many times on here, I showed running horses for over 30 years so I can talk a little more about them. Your story on the chickens sounds like Secretariat Bob, He was probably without a doubt the best racing stallion that the horse racing world ever had the opportunity to watch but what happened with all his produce. He never did produce one that came close to him so I guess this is what we are going to look for if we are going to breed the birds. Maybe 1 out of 100+ will be that one real eye catcher. That doesn't mean that we can't have a nice flock of both hens and cock birds but they just might not be that big time winner at the big shows. Anyway it sure is great to look out in the runs and see these really dark brick shaped birds and know that I am trying to keep something old around besides myself. lol
Jim

 

[docdandc]

Thank you all for your comments.
Yes, the first cockerel is a little narrow in the back going back to the tail. I'm planning on taking him out of this pen and putting him with one of my hens that is real broad and see how their young are. If the young don't end up with the wider backs then I will cull this fella. Don't know if he will fill out any more by summer or not.
I'm just trying to get all the info I need since I have 3 of these guys and some pretty nice girls to start with here in the next few months. I really do appreciate everything that you guys/gals tell me when I ask a question. I'm hoping that between now and 2014 I will have some pretty nice birds.
Again, thanks to all of you for the information.
J

This is where the record keeping comes into play. While some masters can do this from memory, I prefer to keep it written down. Start looking at the breeder birds parents and grandparents to see which traits are "fixed" already. If the #2Cock bird has both sides with good wide level backs and extended & deep keel bones then that is a good thing since he has them too. Lock it in with the same qualities in a hen but look for her parents with good combs and a bit better held wing, not too low. In otherwords, lock in the traits for the type but dont let the other hard to get things get too far out of wack. In the same thought, dont lock in a goofy trait like the hackel stripe color mess and such.

I think of these RIR's as the "Rubics cube" breeding challenge, move one square without messing up the other. Otherwise you will just be trading one problem for another. In particular, if you forgot what traits were needing work from the previous breeding season.


This also happened with Secretariat. Did you know that his traits of a 3X larger heart and 2X lungs did not show up in his progeny? Some smart guy anticipated this and bought up all of his Mares that he could for cheep prices. What he knew was that the gene could be there in the recessive background. He was right! All of Secretariat's daughters' progeny had the superhorse traits for heart and lungs. The gene just skipped a generation. Smart Master Breeder indeed!

The genes are there in these Heritage RIR's, it just takes a good plan to bring them out again. Dan

 

[immyjay54]

This is where the record keeping comes into play. While some masters can do this from memory, I prefer to keep it written down. Start looking at the breeder birds parents and grandparents to see which traits are "fixed" already. If the #2Cock bird has both sides with good wide level backs and extended & deep keel bones then that is a good thing since he has them too. Lock it in with the same qualities in a hen but look for her parents with good combs and a bit better held wing, not too low. In otherwords, lock in the traits for the type but dont let the other hard to get things get too far out of wack. In the same thought, dont lock in a goofy trait like the hackel stripe color mess and such.

I think of these RIR's as the "Rubics cube" breeding challenge, move one square without messing up the other. Otherwise you will just be trading one problem for another. In particular, if you forgot what traits were needing work from the previous breeding season.


This also happened with Secretariat. Did you know that his traits of a 3X larger heart and 2X lungs did not show up in his progeny? Some smart guy anticipated this and bought up all of his Mares that he could for cheep prices. What he knew was that the gene could be there in the recessive background. He was right! All of Secretariat's daughters' progeny had the superhorse traits for heart and lungs. The gene just skipped a generation. Smart Master Breeder indeed!

The genes are there in these Heritage RIR's, it just takes a good plan to bring them out again. Dan

Dan, as usual, I really like the answers you give me. I am going to copy/paste this info and keep in on a hidden page on my site. lol Then when I want to see it again I know exactly where to go. I have a few things there now.
Thank you again and yes I did know the story of Secretariat's mares. The name just won't come to me right now but he did have one daughter that raced and did a pretty fair job for a while.
Thanks Dan
Jim

 

[Mumsy]

Dan, as usual, I really like the answers you give me. I am going to copy/paste this info and keep in on a hidden page on my site. lol Then when I want to see it again I know exactly where to go. I have a few things there now.
Thank you again and yes I did know the story of Secretariat's mares. The name just won't come to me right now but he did have one daughter that raced and did a pretty fair job for a while.
Thanks Dan
Jim

I also am a devoted reader on this thread and copy/paste into a folder to save for future reference. Valuable lessons need to be saved.

 

[immyjay54]

I also am a devoted reader on this thread and copy/paste into a folder to save for future reference. Valuable lessons need to be saved.

Good idea Mumsy, lots of good information on this thread.
Jim