The Legbar Thread!

yoie

Songster
Jan 28, 2011
1,021
11
199
Easternshore of Maryland
Hi Yoie - They are pretty eggs, and they have a nice saturation. I see what you mean about being greener than you would like. Do you have an Online Auction Color Chart OAC or one of the Charts from the Ameraucana or Araucana association? Otherwise since everyone's monitor is calibrated a bit differently we may all be seeing a color a bit different from the actual eggs. Just one of those wonders of our technological age...and blue is so hard to photo.

Interesting that we are getting some odder colors coming out.

1muttsfan - I agree with you that it would be nice to have blue and only blue...and for everyone with CLs we need to be careful to let people know that there is indeed a color range---becuase what could be more disappointing than a false advertisement of the true color.

If you have seen the color charts from the clubs of the other blue-layers in the USA - Araucana and Ameraucana - they also have a range of colors for the eggs: Here's a link to show what I'm speaking of:

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKArauEgg.html

Each square around the edge was taken from an actual eggshell - the British Araucana Society's member F. Decmar - is the person who did the original chart. Hat's off to Mr. Decmar for his insight. IMO A1 is what we all want -- and is D8 the farthest away? But scroll down and see that the prize winner in the photo is quite green..... but definitely more saturated than the other eggs it that contest. -- So -- I'm thinking that any color that matches the ones the Mr. Decmar recorded, should be acceptable. FMPs olive egg is the first I heard also of an olive in the USA, and as the USA standard is being built, olive has been omitted.

What avenues should someone take when the eggs are NOT the "correct" color. Definitely if it is way off, like white, brown or olive -- don't put those eggs in a breeding program. People would/will need to keep careful breeding records to see what pairings produced that ones that are outside the 'correct' are not bred IF there is a goal to achieve the SOP. The blue eggs hatching green egg-layers is a step back...(for all of us that experience this)--- and a real effort needs to be made to get back to blue. I'm wondering if a DNA test of the Cockerel could indicate if he has O/O - genetics. What would happen if both Hen and Cockerel have O/O -- and eggs are still green? -- then it must be within the realm of normal for the blue-eggs. We have always been told that green is due to the influence of brown pigment coating the true blue egg--- I'm beginning to think that there are other factors -- especially if the shell when first broken is identical inside and outside, that would eliminate the green coming from bloom.
hu.gif
Thank you for the link! It is amazing the amount of different shades eggs can come in for just blue/green alone. Where would I go about getting an egg color chart? I really want to see where my egg color is. I really wished I had kept the eggs that these two hatched out of to compare to. This time around I will to see how they change with each generation. I am also going to crack one open to see if they are fertile and how much of a difference in color the inside is from the outside. Thanks!
 

lonnyandrinda

Crowing
7 Years
May 11, 2012
4,081
386
278
Coweta, OK
Many Cream Legbar Club members are using two charts, one is the Online Auction Color Chart, you can find it on ebay or from the company here: http://onlineauctioncolorchart.com/

The Ameraucana Breeder's Club sells the eggshell chip cards on their website, http://www.ameraucana.org/ClubMerchandise.html I think when I ordered mine it took a week or 10 days to come in, and they sent a brochure with a form to sign up for the club too if you want.

Rinda
 

dretd

Crowing
10 Years
Apr 14, 2009
2,141
242
251
Ft Collins, CO
I have been studying to try to get up to speed on chicken genetics especially with regard to blue eggshell color, recessive white and color dilution since these are very relevant in Cream Legbars.

I came across a publication out of Beijing from January 2013 regarding blue egg color genetics: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3554524/pdf/pgen.1003183.pdf

It was quite interesting because it talks about the origins of the blue egg gene in chickens. They looked at Araucanas and two different blue-egg laying breeds of Chinese origin. The blue egg gene is inserted in different parts of the genome supporting parallel mutations in different chicken breeds.

They state in the article that the gene responsible for the blue egg color is inserted by a Retrovirus. The interesting thing is that retroviruses can cause disease in chickens but are associated with other mutations as well as the blue egg color. They listed some (pgs4,7) in the discussion session excerpt: "The effect of endogenous retrovirus (ERV) on hosts is extensive. It can unfavorably influence certain production traits, i.e. egg production, egg weight and body weight...and cause some phenotype variants, i.e. dilute coat color mutation [36] and hairless mutation in mice [37], recessive white [38], henny-feathering mutation [39], and the sex-linked late-feathering mutation [40] in chickens and outheld wing mutation in Drosophila melanogaster[41]. ERV could alter splicing patterns of transcript to produce variants such as the recessive white mutation in the chickens [38].

I need to cogitate on this a bit more and re-read, but I am interested in the potential linkage between the blue egg gene and the recessive white mutation. I have not read the references yet, but wanted to throw this out to the science geeks among us to see if they have a different take on what I read.

eta: One reference paper (French) talking about recessive white http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373650/pdf/1471-2164-7-19.pdf states: "Finally, a rapid diagnostic genotyping test is now available to breeders, in order to identify heterozygous carriers of the mutation, which could be otherwise identified only by a tedious progeny-test." (pg 10) I will investigate if this test is available in the US.
 
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1muttsfan

Up Northerner
9 Years
Mar 26, 2011
21,662
9,191
757
Upper Peninsula Michigan
I had read that the blue egg laying breeds in South America, where our Ameraucanas and Araucanas originated, were suspected to have come from Polynesia chickens introduced in to South America prior to the European colonization of the Americas.
 

lonnyandrinda

Crowing
7 Years
May 11, 2012
4,081
386
278
Coweta, OK
I have been studying to try to get up to speed on chicken genetics especially with regard to blue eggshell color, recessive white and color dilution since these are very relevant in Cream Legbars.

I came across a publication out of Beijing from January 2013 regarding blue egg color genetics: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3554524/pdf/pgen.1003183.pdf

It was quite interesting because it talks about the origins of the blue egg gene in chickens. They looked at Araucanas and two different blue-egg laying breeds of Chinese origin. The blue egg gene is inserted in different parts of the genome supporting parallel mutations in different chicken breeds.

They state in the article that the gene responsible for the blue egg color is inserted by a Retrovirus. The interesting thing is that retroviruses can cause disease in chickens but are associated with other mutations as well as the blue egg color. They listed some (pgs4,7) in the discussion session excerpt: "The effect of endogenous retrovirus (ERV) on hosts is extensive. It can unfavorably influence certain production traits, i.e. egg production, egg weight and body weight...and cause some phenotype variants, i.e. dilute coat color mutation [36] and hairless mutation in mice [37], recessive white [38], henny-feathering mutation [39], and the sex-linked late-feathering mutation [40] in chickens and outheld wing mutation in Drosophila melanogaster[41]. ERV could alter splicing patterns of transcript to produce variants such as the recessive white mutation in the chickens [38].

I need to cogitate on this a bit more and re-read, but I am interested in the potential linkage between the blue egg gene and the recessive white mutation. I have not read the references yet, but wanted to throw this out to the science geeks among us to see if they have a different take on what I read.

eta: One reference paper (French) talking about recessive white http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373650/pdf/1471-2164-7-19.pdf states: "Finally, a rapid diagnostic genotyping test is now available to breeders, in order to identify heterozygous carriers of the mutation, which could be otherwise identified only by a tedious progeny-test." (pg 10) I will investigate if this test is available in the US.

Be sure and post the results of your search for a genetic tester! ChicKat just located the names of some places that may possibly do genetic testing for chickens, send her a PM I'm sure she'd share her research!
 

dretd

Crowing
10 Years
Apr 14, 2009
2,141
242
251
Ft Collins, CO
I had read that the blue egg laying breeds in South America, where our Ameraucanas and Araucanas originated, were suspected to have come from Polynesia chickens introduced in to South America prior to the European colonization of the Americas.

I had read that speculation as well. This paper says that the blue egg gene from China (Asia presumably the ultimate origin for Polynesian people) is at a different location than the Araucana blue egg gene signifying a separate event for this mutation. The chickens from South America may well have been introduced by the Polynesians, however, the blue-egg gene in the Araucana's (and also Cream Legbars) did not come from the Chinese-origin blue-egg laying breeds studied; it is a separate mutation.
 

dretd

Crowing
10 Years
Apr 14, 2009
2,141
242
251
Ft Collins, CO
Be sure and post the results of your search for a genetic tester! ChicKat just located the names of some places that may possibly do genetic testing for chickens, send her a PM I'm sure she'd share her research!

I will for sure if I can figure out how to contact these guys or what the test is called in French!
 
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1muttsfan

Up Northerner
9 Years
Mar 26, 2011
21,662
9,191
757
Upper Peninsula Michigan
I think part of the speculation about Polynesian origin is that the South American birds and Asian birds are similar enough that it is extremely unlikely that chickens arose independently in South America, or migrated across the Peninsula from Asia since they have not been found in central or north America. Since they predate European explorers, they had to have come from somewhere. It would be interesting to see some genetic comparisons between Asian and South American birds, if some could be found that did not have any European genetics mixed in. As for the different mutations, we see that in other characteristics as well, such as the Silkie gene that popped up in some Ams, and other mutations such as dwarfism and delayed feathering genes. Wish we had some research money for some genetic testing.
 

ChicKat

Crowing
Premium Feather Member
9 Years
Be sure and post the results of your search for a genetic tester! ChicKat just located the names of some places that may possibly do genetic testing for chickens, send her a PM I'm sure she'd share her research!
Got one lead from Stoneunhenged, and trying to track down a geneticist at Iowa State U. Texas A&M - no help -- only disease testing. PM'd
 
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ChicKat

Crowing
Premium Feather Member
9 Years
I think part of the speculation about Polynesian origin is that the South American birds and Asian birds are similar enough that it is extremely unlikely that chickens arose independently in South America, or migrated across the Peninsula from Asia since they have not been found in central or north America. Since they predate European explorers, they had to have come from somewhere. It would be interesting to see some genetic comparisons between Asian and South American birds, if some could be found that did not have any European genetics mixed in. As for the different mutations, we see that in other characteristics as well, such as the Silkie gene that popped up in some Ams, and other mutations such as dwarfism and delayed feathering genes. Wish we had some research money for some genetic testing.
We could write a proposal to a foundation. -- you just never know. I guess since it isn't a big commercial thing the odds would be long...but then again, one never knows unless one tries.
 

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