The Legbar Thread!

[babymakes6]

I just sent them too you. I can't send a PDF through the PM on BYC or post a PDF on the BYC so the files aren't here, but I have sent them to a dozen BYC members that have sent me email address as well as posted them on the Cream Legbar Breeders Yahoo group and the Cream Legbar Breeders Facebook pages.

Thank you! I am not on FB, and very seldom visit the Yahoo groups either, so I haven't seen them before. Great succession of shots!

 

[KPenley]

These dark cockerels are NOT a mystery. We have photo progression dark, light, and even medium colored cockerels in the US that were tracked for 10 months.

The difference in down color is mostly due to the Legbar lines have multiple wild type e-loci. Yep... there are multiple e-loci that produced the wild type plumage and the Legbars were created with two wild-type e-loci (and who know what else has been introduce since then). Color modifiers do come into play but are not the what is causing the wide color varriation we are seeing in the USA.

That's incredibly interesting how so different coloring in the chicks is turning out to be similar coloring in the Roos. Are you finding that the lighter cockerals are still growing out with less/more diluted red areas? And you probably said prior, but what happened to "A"? Thanks for putting the picture presentation together!

 

[GaryDean26]

Our first two cockerels were a really light (Far Left) and really light dark one (Far Right). So we tracked them.



Since cockerels are cheap we bought two more cockerels from another breeder who hatch 7 from hatching eggs and already had older cockerels that she was growing out. She sold us the lightest (right) and darkest (Left) from that group.




We lost the really light cockerel at some where between 8-12 weeks (age?). We ended up breeding the dark cockerel from the first group. All of his offspring were dark so we haven't been able to do any more comparisons The two cockerels from the 2nd group were not breeder quality so after bringing an outstanding 10 month old cockerel for our 2nd breeding line they got culled and the study ended because the 2nd line cockerel also produced 100% dark chick down. So...no further down study at this time.

 

[nicalandia]

Is the connection we're looking for (and I'm assuming this is the case) between light/dark down as an indication of light/dark adult coloration?

this is correct..

In other words, are we looking for dark gray down becoming a dark gray bird, and dark brown down becoming a dark brown bird -- or just dark down in general indicating a dark adult, not necessarily a particular color?

first we need to find out how these dark males(both types) turn out when full grown adutls, what types of pullets these males sire(with head dot or not) if dark grey give you crispier saddle/hackle barring or not, thats why its very important for these breeders to keep an detailed track record on them. also on the normal looking males.


the main difference between Dark brown and Dark grey males should be Homozygosity of the Cream gene. remember that CCL chicks should look indistinguishable from Silver duckwing chicks(going by SOP and Punnett)

Do you think Candace's photo series of chicks to adults sheds some light on the issue? And I think Curtis has kept this kind of photo record; let me see if I can provide links. . .

I havent check candace's photo series as of yet

Or am I simply befuddled?

your curiosity is very healthy and I appreciate it. thats how we find the answers of our questions

 

[nicalandia]

These dark cockerels are NOT a mystery.

Oh but they are, we only have guesses so far. that is untill somebody does a DNA testing(how eb and ebc buttercup were found to be the same mutation by Dr. Ron Okimoto)

The difference in down color is mostly due to the Legbar lines have multiple wild type e-loci.

No.

the ONLY difference I've seen on the CCL female chicks so far have been "Gold" e+ wiltype chicks and "Cream" e+ wildtype chicks. REMEMBER that "Cream" wildtype e+ chicks are indistinguishable from "Silver" wildtype e+ chicks

there are multiple e-loci that produced the wild type plumage and the Legbars were created with two wild-type e-loci .

I have seen all of the "multiple" e+ loci so far documented and males and females look identical, meaning that type a females dont look like type b females, YET all of the CCL hens look very similar to each other(no dark females).

Color modifiers do come into play but are not the what is causing the wide color varriation we are seeing in the USA.

the "Wide" color variation we are seeing in the USA is due to the "SAME" Wide color variation we see in Adult birds...

1. lack of Cream(or heterozygous form)
2. cream with Red enhancers
3. lack of cream and red enhancers.

 

[Thespoiledchicken]

Our first two cockerels were a really light (Far Left) and really light dark one (Far Right). So we tracked them.



Since cockerels are cheap we bought two more cockerels from another breeder who hatch 7 from hatching eggs and already had older cockerels that she was growing out. She sold us the lightest (right) and darkest (Left) from that group.




We lost the really light cockerel at some where between 8-12 weeks (age?). We ended up breeding the dark cockerel from the first group. All of his offspring were dark so we haven't been able to do any more comparisons The two cockerels from the 2nd group were not breeder quality so after bringing an outstanding 10 month old cockerel for our 2nd breeding line they got culled and the study ended because the 2nd line cockerel also produced 100% dark chick down. So...no further down study at this time.

Thank you GaryDean for the pics and email

So based on these studies would you say the lightest chicks seem to have the best coloring as adults so far?

 

[nicalandia]

below chicks have a very strong contrast. due to two reasons, the one on the left is a heterozygous silver(S/s+) male and the two on the right are gold Red enhanced females s+/- they are full blown siblings, but their difference is compound by the fact that Silver is completely dominant over gold at the chick stage and Red enhancers dont work on Silver chicks at all, Mahogany or autosomal Red just wont affect Silver(or Heterozygous silver). saddly this is not the case for "cream" which is diluted gold(s+/s+ ig/ig) so red enhancers do have an effect on their chick down..

greyish chick on the left is a heterozygous silver male. gold enhanced females on the right





grey silverish looking chicks have the cream gene.

chicks lacking the cream gene will look like normal gold legbar chicks

chicks with the cream gene and autosomal red will have an intermediate look

thats basically the reason for so much color variation on the USA. yet the UK have less variation, and this infact could be due to different e+ loci

 

[nicalandia]

double post

 

[nicalandia]

Downs, Female : Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground colour – the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump, the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background. Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may best be described as pale silvery-slaty

source: http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/

 

[yoie]

below chicks have a very strong contrast. due to two reasons, the one on the left is a heterozygous silver(S/s+) male and the two on the right are gold Red enhanced females s+/- they are full blown siblings, but their difference is compound by the fact that Silver is completely dominant over gold at the chick stage and Red enhancers dont work on Silver chicks at all, Mahogany or autosomal Red just wont affect Silver(or Heterozygous silver). saddly this is not the case for "cream" which is diluted gold(s+/s+ ig/ig) so red enhancers do have an effect on their chick down..

greyish chick on the left is a heterozygous silver male. gold enhanced females on the right





grey silverish looking chicks have the cream gene.

chicks lacking the cream gene will look like normal gold legbar chicks

chicks with the cream gene and autosomal red will have an intermediate look

thats basically the reason for so much color variation on the USA. yet the UK have less variation, and this infact could be due to different e+ loci

Downs, Female : Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with the ground colour – the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump, the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background. Male: The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may best be described as pale silvery-slaty

source: http://autosexing-poultry.co.uk/wordpress/legbar/

I took pics of my pair after they hatched, I love to keep a record of how they looked at hatch and fully matured. So here is my pair, how would you describe their coloring, based on the chick down.