The Legbar Thread!

[nicalandia]

Its still a boy

No..

as I have stated Early, there are very dark females with a headspot(wich is called for on the SOP) but the difference between these hes(with headspot) and the Dark males is they have a well defined head stripe. boys will have a messy un even head pattern aside from the headspot ofcourse.

Take a look at Chickat dark chicks, one is a female and the other a male. the male has a messy head pattern yet the females have a clearly defined headspot and a clearly defined head stripe

Trish

these chicks are really dark, even darker than the photo's show.

 

[nicalandia]

im an old fogy

what is SOP

Standard of Perfection

 

[Habibs Hens]

Standard of Perfection

seems there is great deviation then in the UK and USA version of cream legbar

Rembering that the where bred in UK by R. C. Punnet and if a breeder be it UK or USA wants a true perfection identical bird to what is the original then the spot is absent in girls

but it seems not that I have seen the APA guide lines on the Legbar that spots are ok in girls but certainly not in UK under PCGB

 

[nicalandia]

X2 what nicalandia said....

back stripes and dark black eye-liner = girl

big white head blotch = boy --

dont forget the well defined headspot on females

Sadly, I divested of those chicks in the photo above.

I think perhaps the dark-black girl grew up to look a LOT like her mother Robin. -- One may not be able to keep all one's hatchlings, especially when one is moving. sorry -- I will keep better track going forward.

I am so sad to hear that.

.

Now--- I'm wondering about not the CREAM but the other part of the barring. Seems like UK birds have a light-gray color in the barring....but most USA birds have a darker - darker gray in the barring. Anyone else see it that way?

.

that was the pourpose



light barred male from the UK



Dark Barred male(USA)



and I believe that anything in between would be interaction of both barring gene(dark vs light) on the same rooster, thats why the same rooster can be the sire of both light and dark chicks(depending on mother.) more info on this subject on this link https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/713115/cream-legbar-working-group-standard-of-perfection/1160

Here's the best of my projection -- the down color seemed to have little to no influence on the adult colors--- but I can't verify with 100% accuracy.

on birds with Barring gene. the Lighter the chick down is on the males, then the lighter they will be when adults(see barred rocks from the USA and Australia)

BTW also, I knew exactly which hen and rooster paired for all my chicks -- and had some of the medium light - the more silvery gray males and those 4 very dark downed chicks all from the same hen and rooster.

let me guess, your male has a medium shade to him, not too dark and not too light correct?

 

[Habibs Hens]

one thing a lot of people are forgetting

Legbars come in 3 flavours

Gold, Silver and Cream

Gold is the Straw colour that's seen in the dark bar cockerel

silver is single dose a very silvery dark bar

and cream is double dose making it paler as in the uk picture

also silver has been extinct in UK for quite some time now

in UK legbars can show gold hackles saddles and wings from incorrect breeding practices

that's sometimes where the chicks can be varied shades they may feather incorrectly

cream legbars should be simple autosex





correct on top and incorrect on bottom
incorrect only single dose (double expected)



correct on right incorrect on left
incorrect has double dose (single expected)

 

[nicalandia]

one thing a lot of people are forgetting

Legbars come in 3 flavours

Gold, Silver and Cream

there are not Gold or Silver Legbar in the USA.. some are working on gold creasted legbars, a very few are doing the same for silver Creasted legbar, but all of these project birds have a Cream Creasted Legbar parent or sires. so no True gold or Silver in the USA

silver is single dose a very silvery dark bar

Silver in a single dose or in Heterozygous form will create "Golden" S/s+ crele birds, they will show straw colored hackles and saddle, not true silver. most of this birds are also heterozygous barring aswell. so ofcourse they will have dark barring but the barring will not be as defined and this birds will show some/most black tail feathers.

cream legbars should be simple autosex

I dont think you grasp the complexitie of the CCL genetics. and while they are complex. there are still ways to sex the dark males vs dark females even if both have a headspot.


for people asking and maybe thinking some of these rich colored cream creasted legbar males are infact single barred... I just dont think any of your birds(the ones I 've seen so far) are heterozygous for the barring gene..

here is how a heterozygous male looks, just take a look at his barring, he lack barring on alot of tail feathers...
http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/1/15/153bade2_SingleBarredLegbar.jpeg

 

[Habibs Hens]

there are not Gold or Silver Legbar in the USA.. some are working on gold creasted legbars, a very few are doing the same for silver Creasted legbar, but all of these project birds have a Cream Creasted Legbar parent or sires. so no True gold or Silver in the USA


Silver in a single dose or in Heterozygous form will create "Golden" S/s+ crele birds, they will show straw colored hackles and saddle, not true silver. most of this birds are also heterozygous barring aswell. so ofcourse they will have dark barring but the barring will not be as defined and this birds will show some/most black tail feathers.




I dont think you grasp the complexitie of the CCL genetics. and while they are complex. there are still ways to sex the dark males vs dark females even if both have a headspot.


for people asking and maybe thinking some of these rich colored cream creasted legbar males are infact single barred... I just dont think any of your birds(the ones I 've seen so far) are heterozygous for the barring gene..

here is how a heterozygous male looks, just take a look at his barring, he lack barring on alot of tail feathers...
http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/1/15/153bade2_SingleBarredLegbar.jpeg

that's not even a legabr

but carry on im in UK and will breed to how punnet bred them as for USA im sure you have your own standards to bred to

 

[lonnyandrinda]

that's not even a legabr

but carry on im in UK and will breed to how punnet bred them as for USA im sure you have your own standards to bred to

No need to get snippy. This is from http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/cream-legbar-standard/4554224408, as far as I know it is the correct standard for UK.

"Downs,
Female (Cream) : Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with ground colour - the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background.

"Male : The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may best be described as pale silvery-slaty." (emphasis added)

As part of the original group that discussed the proposed US Standard of Perfection (SOP), we have followed to the letter the British standard (with the omission of olive egg color) only simplifying or having different word choice as required to fit the stricter guidelines of the American Poultry Association.

We are all trying to get a handle on what makes a correct Cream Legbar, especially in the US as they are so new to us- and these perplexing differences in chick down seem to be part of the puzzle. We are all here in part because we want to know what a Cream Legbar SHOULD look like, and what we should select from to get and keep good quality stock. Let's keep the tone civil so progress can be made without egos getting in the way.


ETA: and garydean26 has done extensive research on Punnet's work to be sure we are following the spirit of his breed. If you want details he has some amazing research collected.

 

[Habibs Hens]

No need to get snippy. This is from http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/cream-legbar-standard/4554224408, as far as I know it is the correct standard for UK.

"Downs,
Female (Cream) : Silver-grey type. The stripe should be very dark brown, extending over the head, neck and rump. The edges of the stripe should be clearly defined, not blurred and blending with ground colour - the sharper the contrast, especially over the rump the better. The stripe should be broad; a narrow or discontinuous stripe should be avoided. A light head patch should be visible, clearly defined in outline, showing up brightly against the dark background.

"Male : The down is much paler in tint, the pattern being blurred and washed out from head to rump; it may best be described as pale silvery-slaty." (emphasis added)

As part of the original group that discussed the proposed US Standard of Perfection (SOP), we have followed to the letter the British standard (with the omission of olive egg color) only simplifying or having different word choice as required to fit the stricter guidelines of the American Poultry Association.

We are all trying to get a handle on what makes a correct Cream Legbar, especially in the US as they are so new to us- and these perplexing differences in chick down seem to be part of the puzzle. We are all here in part because we want to know what a Cream Legbar SHOULD look like, and what we should select from to get and keep good quality stock. Let's keep the tone civil so progress can be made without egos getting in the way.


ETA: and garydean26 has done extensive research on Punnet's work to be sure we are following the spirit of his breed. If you want details he has some amazing research collected.

im not getting snippy

I just feel like im banging my head against a wall that's all

Cream Lrgbars are clearly supposed to have the most minimal to no gold at all

and the website you refer to is just another breeder but has some lovely birds

lets just take that site as an example

http://blue-eggs.co.uk/#/cream-legbar-photos/4554699814

look at the photos of the males and females

they are awesome and they have next to no brown/gold on the males and are the correct cream tint not dark grey or gold

and I was researching just now GreenFire Farms

that Boy is no way near correct infact it would be disqualified in a UK Show for incorrect colouration



and the thing that should worry USA keepers is GreenFire imiported them and are the only unrelated breeder

Although I must admit the Pullets are pretty good quality

so if one way or another the Cream legbars in USA are all from Green Fire of different Years

whats to say inbreeding is not happening which is screwing with the genetics of the down and other things


now im not sure how GreenFire got them weather they where eggs or chicks or fully grown so they can examine quality

or if they where sold them not knowing the standard and relied on the seller to give them goodens I don't know

but one thing for sure is GreenFire could have spent more time looking into it before purchase and gotten better specimens

Unfortunate trait in UK being a established breed that pure unrelated true breeding is not wide spread so some legbars that are in looks very good are not actually cream Legbars

and its evident of this misconception on the Green Fire website:


Quote:
A cotwold is just a plain and simple Hybrid that doesn't breed true or is sexlink its not a variant

same as a columbine, fenton, and similar

and same as some of the hybrids I done that lay green eggs and look like a really bad attempt at a legbar (but for me egg numbers in the hybrid was important not looks)

they only reason its become popular is the coltwold farm where they where first hybridised managed to get a contract with HARRODS to sell the egg

and HARRODS is like a big thing if you shop there.


my legbar male is a very good specimen and shows many good traits and if had it in USA I would have been happy to give out fertile eggs

one thing in breeding Legbars I have seen in my flock is to start with the seem wrong and it gets worrying but they always feather out correct by POL age
at one point I was worried myself when I had my first chicks that they are all wrong but now they look gorgeous and clearly recognisable as Legbars

 

[nicalandia]

im not getting snippy

I just feel like im banging my head against a wall that's all

Cream Lrgbars are clearly supposed to have the most minimal to no gold at all

your understanding on genetics is very limited, and thats why you are not understanding the issue at hand in the USA...

in the USA. there are good colored males and females, but we are also seeing "Dark" Barred males and Darm females hatching and to me knowing whats the issue is the beginning of the solution of the problem. I belive thess birds have "all" it takes to be as good colored as the UK(have seen very good birds in the USA)

that Rich colored male you see in Green Fire Farm is not due to the lack of the cream gene(gold diluter) or due to single barred birds.(single barred wont dilute gold) but due to the fact we are seeing two type of Barring genes, Dark Barring and Light Barring. now if more information is know about these genes, one could breed for light colored chicks and expect better colored males. but color is not everything, Type is about the most important thing in a breed. so I say keep the rich colored birds and breed for type untill further notice.



Edit. the USA Creasted Cream Legbar has some of the coolest genes I've seen on a breed. one of them is the recessive white