The Legbar Thread!

[Trish44]

Perhaps the chicken world should use the terms "show quality" and "pet quality" to distinguish birds within a breed that meet or don't meet standard. In other words, those wrong-colored Ameraucanas would retain Ameraucana status, but be called and sold as pet quality. Doesn't really solve the issue of pedigree, but provides nomenclature for a common situation.

I haven't really been posting much on this thread, just lurking at times. I raise Ameraucanas also as well as Cream Legbars & like you say the standards are so very strict with that breed that there is absolutely no room for variances at all. I get asked all the time as to why if you breed a pure bred Ameraucana to another pure bred & get a non-recognized color why it's still not an Ameraucana. If you ask anyone in the Ameraucana Breeder's Club that question they will give you a terse answer that only the approved colors are truly Ameraucanas & all others are just Easter Eggers. I think with the Cream Legbars since we are all having to work with what we have since we have had to rely on Greenfire stock that was imported that we have to stay open a little more to some variances & not be so closed about colors & such at this point. I for one think taking all of the color out of the roosters makes them boring & that color is what gives them the character. Why do we want to take all the color out so that they're like every other barred breed out there?

 

[KPenley]

Hey Teresa, It's great to see you! It's not so much desire to take the color out, as breeding closer to standard so that we can get the Cream Legbar accepted into the APA (since the Cream Legbar was created a while back and had a standard accepted almost 50 years ago, we must have a standard that practically mirrors the original per the APA). I think that there is enough interest in the golden birds, and possibly the white, that just a tiny bit further down the road they could be accepted as well.

 

[ChicKat]

I haven't really been posting much on this thread, just lurking at times. I raise Ameraucanas also as well as Cream Legbars & like you say the standards are so very strict with that breed that there is absolutely no room for variances at all. I get asked all the time as to why if you breed a pure bred Ameraucana to another pure bred & get a non-recognized color why it's still not an Ameraucana. If you ask anyone in the Ameraucana Breeder's Club that question they will give you a terse answer that only the approved colors are truly Ameraucanas & all others are just Easter Eggers. I think with the Cream Legbars since we are all having to work with what we have since we have had to rely on Greenfire stock that was imported that we have to stay open a little more to some variances & not be so closed about colors & such at this point. I for one think taking all of the color out of the roosters makes them boring & that color is what gives them the character. Why do we want to take all the color out so that they're like every other barred breed out there?

Thanks Trish44 -

Great insight, and I'm one of the people that agrees that the white birds are a bit boring. Strangely, the one poultry event that I attended where Cream Legbar roosters were shown I noticed a lot of admiration and excitement around the colorful roosters there. There was a photo of a more white rooster, and grant you a photo cannot compare to a real rooster, but in general, I think most people DO like the "flashier" birds more. Why not?

Regarding if the British SOP does take a sliver/white rooster as correct-- as Hermoine said to Ron "Are you quite sure you got it right?" -
Are there even any photos of winning males from UK? I have heard that there is a very vocal group - is it Face book or someplace that does advocate the whitish CL - but I have also heard that there are UK breeders of repute that don't like the silver version.

Isn't there some doubt about the ambiguity of the coloration of roosters? lonnyandrinda - is there a show-ring example of a winning CL rooster? Is it face book that is the strong driver behind the ultra light colored roosters? Why aren't there examples out and about from the UK contests? I think most UK breeders aren't showing cockerels - or if they are, they are doing double breeding for a line for light roosters that doesn't have the qualities that a lot of USA people want and expect in their birds. Among the things lost by going for just color, so I have heard are 1. Health of the bird 2. Fecundity and fertility and 3. color in the females from the ultra light males.

I have to laugh when I recall that long ago in this or one of these threads I posted "the lighter the better" - but I wonder if that can go too far. Many CL owners want/expect a LOT of eggs...at least 180 a year even accounting for molting and broodiness, and they expect the eggs to be hatching eggs. (Fecundity and Fertility) --

I think that there is a good point to be made that zooming off to coloration as the primary trait could have negative effects down the road. I would definitely expect that having a CL rooster look like "all the other barred breeds" would be a major loss for Cream Legbars.

Good insight Trish44, and thanks for posting!

 

[TheTropix]

http://www.legbarsofbroadway.co.uk/picture gallery/
I was looking at the Cotswold Legbars on a UK site, the gallery link is above. While the Cotswold Legbar hens seem to have a fair variance in color, many look just like the first round of Greenfire's Cream Legbars, which has made at least several of us wondering about the quality of Greenfire's original Cream Legbars (obviously they're not up to standard, or everyone wouldn't be scrambling to breed birds that DO match the standard. (I know, I'm making trouble again... but it seems like I'm not the only one wondering about that) The Cotswold Legbar roosters are very light with little to no 'color' other than white/silver barred. (Is this what the US Cream Legbar Standard designers are after? or something close to that?) They lay blue eggs, too. Is it possible that Greenfire accidentally got mixes of the two? (of course it's possible, but does that sound like it could be a viable reason why so many of the Cream Legbars in the USA are NOT up to Standard?)
I hope I haven't angered anyone again. I just think there's more to it than some fluke that some people seemed to get birds closer to Standard than most seem to have received from Greenfire. Even Greenfire suggests their 'new' line is closer to Standard.

From Greenfire's site.. "We are now shipping day-old chicks from our new 2013 line of cream legbars! Then hen pictured here is one of our 2013 breeders and shows the dominant cream color and prominent feather crest we’re seeing in this line. The genetics of these newest imports will be available in many of the legbars we sell in 2013. We cannot select chicks from a specific breeding group when filling orders."

 

[ChicKat]

I put this in the Cream Legbar thread---but I think it belongs here...

MY Request of ALL Y'all​

And while I"m stirring up the pot and causing trouble. (DID I borrow that phrase from TheTROPIX?)
- could I respectfully request that some enterprising individual will start another thread
dedicated to the CL hybrids? It is interesting to see the results of test pairings -- but I think
it can also be confusing for someone who is coming here in search of information about Cream Legbars.
Perhaps put a link to your other thread in here.....but we have more non-Cream Legbars in here
of late than Cream Legbars.

We are trying to help support and establish this breed. Just my request folks....

​

..... or at a minimum if you are putting in hybrid photos -- then please mark in BIG BOLD letters that they are hybrids and not Cream Legbars..... pretty please.


This request accompanied this link and a posting in the Cream Legbar Thread.....
http://www.thepoultrygarden.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=15999

 

[ChicKat]

http://www.legbarsofbroadway.co.uk/picture gallery/
I was looking at the Cotswold Legbars on a UK site, the gallery link is above. While the Cotswold Legbar hens seem to have a fair variance in color, many look just like the first round of Greenfire's Cream Legbars, which has made at least several of us wondering about the quality of Greenfire's original Cream Legbars (obviously they're not up to standard, or everyone wouldn't be scrambling to breed birds that DO match the standard. (I know, I'm making trouble again... but it seems like I'm not the only one wondering about that) The Cotswold Legbar roosters are very light with little to no 'color' other than white/silver barred. (Is this what the US Cream Legbar Standard designers are after? or something close to that?) They lay blue eggs, too. Is it possible that Greenfire accidentally got mixes of the two? (of course it's possible, but does that sound like it could be a viable reason why so many of the Cream Legbars in the USA are NOT up to Standard?)
I hope I haven't angered anyone again. I just think there's more to it than some fluke that some people seemed to get birds closer to Standard than most seem to have received from Greenfire. Even Greenfire suggests their 'new' line is closer to Standard.

From Greenfire's site.. "We are now shipping day-old chicks from our new 2013 line of cream legbars! Then hen pictured here is one of our 2013 breeders and shows the dominant cream color and prominent feather crest we’re seeing in this line. The genetics of these newest imports will be available in many of the legbars we sell in 2013. We cannot select chicks from a specific breeding group when filling orders."

Hi TheTropix--

Good seeing a post from you.

LOL if anyone is angry about the search for the truth they should be ashamed.... I just wanted to use those little smileys because they are amusing and I haven't ever used them...and probably won't again....but colorful and action packed. I'm particularly amused by the green one's tantrum if you watch it long enough.... Just wanted to mess with the little smileys a bit -- now back to topic...

From what I understand the Cotswold Legbar is a Hybrid with some Cream Legbar genetics. They can lay Blue eggs - or green or olive or brown or ecru or white or anything. It is more or less the UK equivalent of our Easter Egger...and I don't think that they have EEs in UK from some reading on some other threads..... and we all know how good the EEs often are...good layers, healthy and friendly birds etc. hybrid vigor at its best. Probably a bit like Cotswold Legbars... And many UK breeders regret the name Cotswold Legbars because these are NOT autosexing and thus add to the confusion about Legbars and Cream Legbars.

Did Greenfire Farms get Cotswold Legbars by mistake? So highly unlikely that I would not even entertain the notion. Someone in one of these threads...I think it might have been Dr. dretd explained how in chickens two perfect parents could have offspring that are not perfect for their breed (can happen in any species - but maybe more often in chickens than in racehorses let's say. ) The genetics are like a giant roulette wheel. Although unlikely, a perfect pair of CLs could have a crestless chick or even a chick that doesn't have the color -- take for example the white CLs that show up from time to time........

Keep searching and keep posting -- I really appreciate the insights that you give us.

 

[dretd]

Just a quickie update so I can have friends cross their fingers for me.

I set shipped eggs in my new Brinsea on August 30th--12 I received from Blackbirds13 and 4 from my Welsummer as a reference so I can tell if its the shipping or the incubation if there are failures.
I placed them in lockdown last night (a day late) and heard peeping already. 4/4 of the WellieX made it this far and 5/12 of the shipped eggs--much higher than my usual 1-2/dozen! Also 2 of the eggs were collected on 8/22 so they were technically 9 days old when set.

This morning 3/4 of the WellieX have pipped. None of the CL eggs, but this is a day early so hopefully they will be on track. I'm trying a new hatching placement where I am having all of the eggs touch one another so that in theory the other chicks will hear or sense the vibrations of the other chicks and hopefully encourage the hatch along

 

[HaplessRunner]

Congrats and good luck!!!

 

[1muttsfan]

Best wishes for your hatch

 

[Pozees]

dretd waiting with bated breath to hear how you do! I recently had the same thought about the eggs touching during the pip to hatch phase, haven't tried it yet.