The Legbar Thread!

[horsedirt]

I took myself off that FB page. I can't belive how unforgiving and snobbish they are.

 

[DeltaBluezTess]

Well I posted on your rooster and I am sure I will be reprimanded......

Diane Pagel

 

[blackbirds13]

I totally disagree with what is going on here. I am a bit taken aback by it actually. They are unemphatic about what their goals and intentions are with their page. If you disagree don't join. Your birds are not what they are promoting and they have full right to say so but to post simply to instigate and then to act all taken aback and injured by their commentary just does not sit well with me.
I do not find the very colorful birds to be as attractive as some of you do and I do not find in any way that a cream colored Cream Legbar looks like some poor version of a barred rock. They are truly beautiful birds. The white sports are really just gorgeous but the golden birds are not my cup of tea. My opinion that I'm entitled to. They also do not phenotypically and genotypically meet the British Standard that they are promoting or the American we are drafting here. If that became the case I would find another group to join here. They may not know everything about breeding their birds and their birds may not be what you desire yourself or for promotion as a Cream Legbar but it's their page and their ideal that they a group for. I am an artist and used to hard critiques so I'm not personally hurt if someone rips into my flock. As a breeder I would expect harsh critiques as the ultimate one will come from the judge or from the genes should I not critique my own flock hard enough to cull hard enough to ensure I am only breeding the best of what I produce. I see nothing wrong with their saying they do not care for your version of the bird. I do not also. But this looks almost like an engineered campaign on your end to just, as was said prior, stir something up.
Un-sat!

. Just my opinion of course.

 

[ChicKat]

Although I don't know what happens in that famous (or infamous) Facebook group, I very strongly question the belief that they have the line on the only interpretation of the SOP and they are the ones who know the correct genetics. It reminds me of the story about the daughter who asked her mother why they always cut the end off the Sunday roast before putting it in the pan. the mother replied that she did it because that is how her mother taught her to cook. So they asked the grandmother - and her reply was the same....When they asked the great-grand-mother why she always cut the end off the roast before putting it in the pan....(Was it a cooking secret to prepare a better roast of the family...etc.etc??) The great grandmother replied that she did it because her pan wasn't large enough to hold the roast without the end cut off == That step could have been omitted by all the subsequent daughters. The source of the very pale may be extraordinarily similar -- someone told someone who told someone -- and THAT doesn't make it correct JMO. Exactly what genetic expertise is in that group?

I also agree that Blackbirds13 has a beautiful set of white CLs. And has worked very hard to understand and promote her vision for CLs.

If someone goes on their FB group and tries to stir things up - I guess from the remarks here I have heard that has been a success...but what about the idea that it is also for an chance to obtain information? -- Why on earth would someone go on the attack even if their chain gets pulled a little - and not give good information?

As horsedirt says - in most animals their lineage determines their breed. To tell someone that their Cream Legbar isn't a Cream Legbar - based on a picture -- seems a stretch to those of us who deal with other animals.... And it circles back around to ..well I won't go there...Hopefully I will have an article in the next CL Club newsletter that will examine this question - - -

Meanwhile - what would happen if both the ends of the continuum supported each other to get the best and most correct Cream Legbars without any animosity? (Interpreting that the FB group showers those who disagree with their view with animosity)--- What's gained? People leave their group....

 

[dretd]

I popped over to the FB page to see what all the hubbub is about. Some of the posts were quite chatty and some were snarky. I guess I didn't take it as harshly as others, but then again they are not my pictures or birds...

I would recommend when you read the posts, do so with a mental British Accent. I have a BIL who is English and I also have spent some time over there so it comes naturally. The criticisms may not seem as harsh if you put it in context like that.

Here is the pinned post from Jill Rees https://www.facebook.com/groups/332175963534766/ :


Jill Rees


Just to Clarify, the reason this particular page was set up is to ensure that the pure Cream Legbar survives. Thanks to the internet and various forums etc its much easier to find out what is and isn't a Cream Legbar, if you post a picture and we comment that its hackles appear the wrong colour, or it's the wrong shape, or other negative comments, please don't be offended we simply want to ensure that incorrect birds are NOT called Cream Legbars and bred from creating further problems, it's ok to call them blue egg layers. Most of us are very trusting, and believe what others tell us which is why there are many Cream Legbar types. We are not experts but Bonnie Hall, Emily de Gray and myself and one or two others that have been breeding these birds for quite a while, we know what we are looking at, and try to help everyone in the group. It might only be a chicken but we want our Cream Legbar to be pure. UK
Like · · Follow Post · 5317 · June 24 at 8:56am

She has said it up front for all to read, folks. This is her point of view and don't be offended by it. You Have Been Warned.

I am actually puzzled by the folks like Jill, that take the 'that's not a real Cream Legbar' one step further and say it and its progeny should be forevermore be removed from breeding stock becasue it is not a perfect example of the breed. I think that is a very limiting view. Advanced breeders will outcross and breed the progeny back into the line. Although a few generations could be termed as not real Cream Legbars they are still used to infuse a trait into the line and eventually you will get a 'real' Cream Legbar. I would call the off-type birds as EEs and the good birds of type Cream Legbars. Same parents, different phenotype, different label.

Its also interesting that we tend to develop a point of view and see others from that viewpoint. I don't mind the birds with Chestnut (as allowed by the SOP) as long as you can tell they are Cream based (hard to do in many cases). Others like no color. Both are valid points of view and I appreciate that a breeder has a vision and works towards a goal even if it would not be my goal. Blackbirds13 and FlyingMonkeyPoop each are breeding to their own goals and though they may have different takes, I have much respect for each one.

So what I read in Jill's post is that she flat out says she will call a bird too colorful and states it should be removed from the gene pool only breeding best to best. The flaw with this is that, I, personally, feel most of her hens so not have a well defined salmon breast. They, too are not meeting SOP in that area. If they were my birds I do not believe they should be removed from the breeding pool if they are of good type and quality in other respects. I rather think that perhaps a few of those more colorful birds that she recommends removing could be used to my advantage in a breeding program to correct those pale-breasted hens. Different stroke for different folks. Just because I disagree with her point of view on this doesn't make either one of us a bad person and I am mentally agreeing to disagree with that particular part of her philosophy. No offense taken or given.

 

[blackbirds13]

Although I don't know what happens in that famous (or infamous) Facebook group, I very strongly question the belief that they have the line on the only interpretation of the SOP and they are the ones who know the correct genetics. They may not indeed have the only line on the only interpretation but who else is out there promoting another view? If someone has a different take they should then promote it in their own way not complain that a group of folks have come together to promote their own ideal that they disagree with. It reminds me of the story about the daughter who asked her mother why they always cut the end off the Sunday roast before putting it in the pan. the mother replied that she did it because that is how her mother taught her to cook. So they asked the grandmother - and her reply was the same....When they asked the great-grand-mother why she always cut the end off the roast before putting it in the pan....(Was it a cooking secret to prepare a better roast of the family...etc.etc??) The great grandmother replied that she did it because her pan wasn't large enough to hold the roast without the end cut off == That step could have been omitted by all the subsequent daughters. The source of the very pale may be extraordinarily similar -- someone told someone who told someone -- and THAT doesn't make it correct JMO. Exactly what genetic expertise is in that group? They don't pretend to be genetic experts from what I gather being on there. They rarely speak to the form of the birds posted unless it's the comb or crest... so no they are nor for sure but there is at least 1 poultry judge on there. Their birds breed true from generation to generation. Jill is unapologetic that she breeds for show. I think we can agree that you and I will disagree on what is and is not correct about the pale birds, as I do believe the gold ones are incorrect and my thoughts on the pale ones are veering away from ig cream to of a phenomelanic reason for that.

I also agree that Blackbirds13 has a beautiful set of white CLs. And has worked very hard to understand and promote her vision for CLs. Totally agree with you there!

If someone goes on their FB group and tries to stir things up - I guess from the remarks here I have heard that has been a success...but what about the idea that it is also for an chance to obtain information? -- Why on earth would someone go on the attack even if their chain gets pulled a little - and not give good information? I think we disagree with who's chain got pulled or who pulled the chain or the idea of negatively remarking on a bird that does not meet their interpretation of the standard.

As horsedirt says - in most animals their lineage determines their breed. To tell someone that their Cream Legbar isn't a Cream Legbar - based on a picture -- seems a stretch to those of us who deal with other animals.... And it circles back around to ..well I won't go there...Hopefully I will have an article in the next CL Club newsletter that will examine this question - - - In my opinion the gold birds may genetically not be Cream Legbars as I think there is an argument that the missing double dose of cream makes their genotype not as it should be for a pure bred Cream Legbar....but that argument may not have a resolution suitable for both sides. And you must remember they are in the UK where a lot of the gold birds are indeed impure in a way ours may not be as they do have a history of mixed and cross-bred birds there. Something I think you and I agree we both want to avoid here. So the context of that commentary seems to be getting lost here.

Meanwhile - what would happen if both the ends of the continuum supported each other to get the best and most correct Cream Legbars without any animosity? (Interpreting that the FB group showers those who disagree with their view with animosity)--- What's gained? People leave their group.... and they should as they are working at cross purposes to what the group states is their goal... I do not see what the issue or loss would be with that. I will be breeding the birds I feel are most correct to the standard and it would be impossible for me to promote a golden version if I believe the lighter birds are correct. Unfortunately I think this is just one of those things were a side must be chosen and then worked towards for the individual breeder. You stated once that you needed a clearly defined goal to work towards. It may just be that your and my goal are exclusive in part. These things happen. I don't see why anyone would be personally hurt as the comments are not a personal attack but a critique of a bird via photograph. Friends do not always think alike but they are still friends if that relationship is a true one. On the internet we are all anonymous unless we have a personal connection and I feel no animosity towards anyone else even with vehement disagreement with their position. In fact I commend the force with which each side puts forth their argument. I don't see why disagreement must necessary be viewed as animosity. We have the same issues here on BYC as stated by Steen in the Ameraucana thread. No one on the page has said anything with any animosity towards a poster and if so I think the administrators would not put up with it. They just have an ideal that you and others may disagree with.

I do not apologize for the ideal I seek and am breeding towards. I expect certain aspects of my ideal to change and be altered as I go forward and that I will learn that I made errors and incorrect assumptions along the way but I believe more in what I see with my own two eyes as opposed to what I see and read on the internet. I think disagreement is good and can lead to a positive outcome for both sides even if the eventual goals achieved differ.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks blackbirds13 for the excellent views - I do appreciate the entirety of your outlook and the work you are doing.

My objection comes when people who may or may not have the expertise diminish birds of others based solely on their own particular preference. And perhaps with the facebook group it is a 'let the buyer beware' when someone jumps in. We were very concerned that perhaps eBay sellers were taking advantage of high Cream Legbar prices and selling 1/2 Cream Legbars to unsuspecting buyers for huge prices - so I sympathize with the UK folks worries since there has been a bit of mixing going on over there for awhile.

Never in 100-years would I wish to tell you which path to take or how to raise your chickens - I know you are leagues ahead of me and may be one of the very first CL owners in the USA. I am one of the persons who admires the work you are doing. In all likelihood we may always agree to disagree.

Never-the-less - I will also probably always take a stand for people who's birds may be maligned needlessly by well-meaning but not necessarily accurate comments.

 

[normanack]

I am way too meek to get involved, so while this next musing may seem related to the previous discussion, I am not looking at those birds or breeders. And the following words are not meant as statements of fact, merely suppositions. I am not the smartest lightbulb in the boat.

So chicken breeds don't require a pedigree -- if it looks like a Golden Australian Chook, it is a Golden Australian Chook. . . .

If Cream Legbar Dad is a show-winning example of the breed, and so is Cream Legbar Mom, and Baby Junior has a pure black beak, he is not a Cream Legbar because he doesn't look like one. Clearly something else has been added to the mix -- even if generations ago -- to get that black beak.

Junior isn't a Cream Legbar because he doesn't look like one. He doesn't look like one because he has some infusion of genes from another breed in the past. But purity of pedigree is not a defining factor. Yet it is.

Maybe the decision to discount pedigree is simply practicality, but it does kind of throw a wrench into the logic. In a well-established breed, Junior's odd gene might earn him a one-way trip to the crock-pot. But when the vast majority of the breed is wonky in any number of respects, Junior's bank of genes is way too valuable to cook because of one bad gene.

Should we say Junior isn't a Cream Legbar and shouldn't be bred? But . . . he doesn't need to be a Cream Legbar to be bred because pedigree doesn't matter.

Maybe what we call him isn't important. What's important is what we do with him. And what we do with him depends on what we have to work with. So whether he is or isn't a Cream Legbar, in the end, isn't really an issue at all.

 

[enola]

In my opinion, breeders of any breed of chickens keep records of pedigree so they can look closely at what particular crosses produce.

This allows two courses of action - 1- if they don't like what is produced they don't repeat that cross again. 2 - if they do like what a particular cross produced they know how to produce more.

Please corrrect me if I am off base.

 

[ChicKat]

Should we say Junior isn't a Cream Legbar and shouldn't be bred? But . . . he doesn't need to be a Cream Legbar to be bred because pedigree doesn't matter.

Maybe what we call him isn't important. What's important is what we do with him. And what we do with him depends on what we have to work with. So whether he is or isn't a Cream Legbar, in the end, isn't really an issue at all.

It's a good way to highlight where the logic falls. In theory the lines of birds would produce like - and if Jr. did show a black beak - I guess he would be considered a 'sport' or a mutation.

Did you get a chance to read this one by the late Robert Belosi?
http://bloslspoutlryfarm.tripod.com/id68.html

There are a couple of ideas at play... for us in the USA getting Cream Legbars started - we are perhaps 'suffering' from the crossing of strains. In the long run it will promote healthy chickens with a range of genetic diversity, in the short run it has rippled and in some cases muddied the waters, for which GFF has perhaps taken excessive heat needlessly. Kind of ****** if you do and ****** if you don't. If only one close genetic strain of CLs was in the USA, the breed would suffer. When I was a member of the San Diego Wild Animal Park, I remember distinctly how important it was in the endangered species that they worked to maintain as much genetic diversity as they possibly could. There were gene pool data banks with other wildlife parks and zoos to protect the long term health of the species and perhaps even their survival......

Here's an excerpt from the article and echoes what normack said about pairing two champions, how it would seem logical and why long time breeders wouldn't advise it:

"The Desire to Cross Strains: When I first wanted Rhode Island Reds in the early 1960s as a boy I saw a Rhode Island Red Cockerel that was Grand Champion of the show and a Pullet that was Reserve of breed who where owned by two different breeders. Neither one of these master breeders got their start from the same breeder and where as far apart from being related as possibly could be. Talking to another Hall of Fame Rhode Island Red Breeder Cliff Terry from Nebraska who Judged this National Meet I told Mr. Terry if you crossed that male and that female you would have champions next year. He put his hand on my shoulder and said Son it sounds logical ,but genetically you will have a nightmare of faults and defects. When you cross two different strain you are disturbing the genes pools perfected by the master breeders for maybe twenty or more years. You are money ahead to just get you a good male such as a brother of that male on Champion row, two hens that are his aunts or his mother and start your birds from just one breeder. Mr. Terry stated more people have got into Rhode Island Reds and have left than you can shake a stick at. The main reason they leave is crossing strains because they think they are going to hit the jackpot and get a winner. I told this story to Hall of Fame Bantam Breeder, R Paul Webb, a few years later when I visited his home in Oklahoma City Oklahoma. He said Cliff was right. I have made crosses to develop my Red Bantams, but it's a process of three to four generations before you introduce them into your line. If anyone crosses my strain of bantams with say some bantams from another strain they will be in for a rude awaking. It would take you 5 years to get back to where you started after you pull out all the defects in color and type."

So there must be enough genetic diversity to maintain health, vigor, fertility and fecundity and there must be enough genetic similarity to eventually have the correct cookie-cutter looking flock (to a degree).....The single most important thing is the healthy chickens (and should go without saying), then comes autosexing -- showing will be ready just about the time that the bird is ready for APA acceptance....

As diverse as every Cream Legbar in the USA is - they all still trace back to the Cream Legbars from GFF. It could be that there are different strains being mixed...and it may well take 5-years until the best from each of those is incorporated and the unwanted genetics are sidelined. For example, the black beak mentioned in normanack's post. The insight too is only the owner knows if that bird should go to the crock pot or not for their own purposes.