The Legbar Thread!

[Junibutt]

Pullet - Your pullet lacks double cream gene (ig/ig). Whether they are single carriers for cream or lack cream entirely is not really evident unless you breed them to a known carrier of cream and they produce any cream birds. If your male is a carrier for cream either single or double you will produce a small percentage of offspring that carry cream and a smaller percentage of birds that carry double cream if your pullets carry any cream at all. If nothing cream comes of this process and your male appears to carry cream then your pullets probably lack any cream. You can keep the offspring from these mating and breed them back to the father and produce cream birds if any of them carry the cream gene but you may not be able to still tell which pullets are carriers and which are not. It will require test mating or just mating them and keeping only the cream offspring if any are produced.

The gold tone in the hackle is a clear indicator that she is not double cream. If the other pullet is similar in tone then the same applies to her. If darker then it may indicate she carries no cream and this girl carries single but I have found that the only clear way to tell is to breed and hatch and grow out a lot of birds. An easier way would be to simply get cream pullets for your boy.

The cockerel - So far he looks good. There is some color coming out on his saddle but his shoulders and back look good so far so he may not have the melanizer issues of too much chestnut on the shoulders. He may be single if not double cream and workable in a cream program if that is your desire.

I have worked and still teach Graphic Design so I am more familiar with the Pantone colors. A new printed one is great but online it is subject to a vast number of deviations on different devices and subjective issues. Color charts are nice but they need to be replaced every few years as the tones of the colors tend to mellow or darken. I use one for my Marans eggs but I have 2 and notice that one has changed slightly than the other over the years I've had them. I doubt very much there is a chart that can indicate the percentage of gold or cream in a bird. Legbars are either single, double or zero carriers of cream and the color of the bird is determined by the levels of melanin, whether pheomelanin, eumelanin or autosomal and enhancers, diluters and melanizers, etc, and a chart cannot indicate the influence of any of those. JMO




I agree with KPenley - give them sometime to see if they mellow out. I have a bunch of mixed ages and sexes and in my switching and adding I have had a couple of the older boys attempt the mount but then they stopped.... and yes I have the juvie crowing starting... I am not sure how long this will work but if you pull him you may want to do so with at least one more boy to keep him company. I try to keep my boys in groups for as long as possible until I choose my keepers.

Those are the only two pullets and cockerel I have that are 12 weeks old. There are 2 more pullets that are 5 weeks but are from the same line so I don't expect much different results. i will try test breeding and see what happens. Since there is only 1 cockerel, I cannot separate him or he will go crazy. I can probably take two 14 week old Brahma pullets and put him with them if he keeps on trying to mate, or take the two Legbar pullets and put them in a separate coop. Lets see!

 

[ChicKat]

Following 2 are of Hope one of the pullets. What % age gold she would be considered?

I think that my chart that I am developing is the source of the question to what % gold the pullet is showing... It was my hope a while back that intelligent conversation about the range of cream that some of us think Cream Legbars have could be carried on.

So I think the question is what is the match to this chart. I have sent it to a couple of people to look over, and I think I will send it to some genetic experts to get some feedback. But here is what I am developing:



so since not many people have a copy -- there isn't a way for them to provide answers.

So I would say to my eyes that 'Hope' looks to be showing only about 30% of gold. I think that perhaps the Cream Legbar Club's website chicken "Lillian" belonging to Jill Rees shows about 45% gold. One of the reasons I started at 50% gold is that I don't think people are displaying CLs that show much more than 50% gold. I also think that the ig is a dilution of gold rather than an elimination.

One thing I find extremely interesting and somewhat confusing is that if the cream gene is recessive, the non-cream Legbar would appear identical in appearance to the acknowledged 100% gold bird above in the upper left corner. The hen's back feathers would be a very bright burnt orange color - etc. The cockerels would have the brown wing triangle shown in the upper left picture. From what I know a recessive gene does not show...so I don't think that one can look at a CL and accurately say that CL has one cream gene. --

A male could have a Silver gene and a gold gene and appear silver, since silver is dominant... The appearance of silver is the last image on the lower right side. The zero gold 100% silver has a white wing triangle, and the birds in between have the percentage of the first image corresponding to the percentage listed below the image.

Now I know that blackbirds13 has expressed that we disagree on the 'correct' appearance of a CL. If the lower right image is her vision for her flock, I think that is fine. I also think that people who have a different vision, and a different interpretation of what 'cream' should look like deserve equal time.

My copy of the APA's SOP has a definition for cream under the technical terms where it says cream is 'light yellow' - (my copy is dated 1938-1939)

These are in Adobe PhotoShop elements 10 for anyone who has the software and wants to take the opacity slider to see where the appearance of silver or gold look at different percentages. If you would like me to send you the .psd file..... Send me a PM, and you can play with your own percentages.

ETA: I have to say again that I think 'Hope' is a very attractive CL pullet, and Junibutt should package her up and send her to me, because I want to reduce the melanizers in my flock!

 

[Junibutt]

I think that my chart that I am developing is the source of the question to what % gold the pullet is showing... It was my hope a while back that intelligent conversation about the range of cream that some of us think Cream Legbars have could be carried on.

So I think the question is what is the match to this chart. I have sent it to a couple of people to look over, and I think I will send it to some genetic experts to get some feedback. But here is what I am developing:



so since not many people have a copy -- there isn't a way for them to provide answers.

So I would say to my eyes that 'Hope' looks to be showing only about 30% of gold. I think that perhaps the Cream Legbar Club's website chicken "Lillian" belonging to Jill Rees shows about 45% gold. One of the reasons I started at 50% gold is that I don't think people are displaying CLs that show much more than 50% gold. I also think that the ig is a dilution of gold rather than an elimination.

One thing I find extremely interesting and somewhat confusing is that if the cream gene is recessive, the non-cream Legbar would appear identical in appearance to the acknowledged 100% gold bird above in the upper left corner. The hen's back feathers would be a very bright burnt orange color - etc. The cockerels would have the brown wing triangle shown in the upper left picture. From what I know a recessive gene does not show...so I don't think that one can look at a CL and accurately say that CL has one cream gene. --

A male could have a Silver gene and a gold gene and appear silver, since silver is dominant... The appearance of silver is the last image on the lower right side. The zero gold 100% silver has a white wing triangle, and the birds in between have the percentage of the first image corresponding to the percentage listed below the image.

Now I know that blackbirds13 has expressed that we disagree on the 'correct' appearance of a CL. If the lower right image is her vision for her flock, I think that is fine. I also think that people who have a different vision, and a different interpretation of what 'cream' should look like deserve equal time.

My copy of the APA's SOP has a definition for cream under the technical terms where it says cream is 'light yellow' - (my copy is dated 1938-1939)

These are in Adobe PhotoShop elements 10 for anyone who has the software and wants to take the opacity slider to see where the appearance of silver or gold look at different percentages. If you would like me to send you the .psd file..... Send me a PM, and you can play with your own percentages.

ETA: I have to say again that I think 'Hope' is a very attractive CL pullet, and Junibutt should package her up and send her to me, because I want to reduce the melanizers in my flock!

@ChicKat I might just do that if my neighbors interfere with my breeding plan. Hope is also very friendly compared to her sister Faith who is very flighty and hard to catch.

 

[ChicKat]

@ChicKat I might just do that if my neighbors interfere with my breeding plan. Hope is also very friendly compared to her sister Faith who is very flighty and hard to catch.

I love it when they are friendly and easy to manage.... Keep me in mind if you ever need to rehome her!!! (I'm serious this time) :O)

 

[DoubleMM]

These are my boys... hatch date July 4th.

I know it's early but any comments regarding what to watch for as they develope would be appreciated.

1.)

2.)

3.)

4.)


And here are some of the girls

1.)

2.)

3.)

4.)

5.)

 

[ChicKat]

DoubleMM

Congratulations on your hatch. Cute chicks. Probably look for robust, healthy, active chicks. Depending on what you are working on for your flock - you may want to tag the ones that are growing biggest, or the ones that are the most curious/friendly.

Love your Avatar BTW
:O)

 

[blackbirds13]

Cream Legbars are ig/ig - double cream 100% cream gene
or Ig/ig (ig/-) single cream 50% cream gene but will still look gold in the phenotype
Ig/Ig (-/-) no cream gene 0% cream - gold phenotype.

I am not understanding the % breakdown as it does not match with the genotype of the bird and while ig is a diluter it will 'cover' and eliminate the gold in the phenotype but there are still other enhnacers, diluters and melanizers that affect the look of the phenotype. Just looking at a bird's plumage may give only partial indication of the underlying genetics.

 

[GaryDean26]

I may have missed something (I have been doing a lot of skimming and skipping).

I didn't think the percentage break down had anything to do with the genotype. I was thinking this was something like the Araucana color cards. A way to describe a the phenotype ( 20 different shades of blue/green eggs even though all of the birds are assumed to be O/O in the genotype and similarly 8 shades of cream even though all the birds are assumed to be ig/ig) .

I assumed that you could say that the color of you flocks was in the 10-25% range to describe the shades of cream you are seeing, or you could say that you flock was in the 33-45% range.

It didn't look like this chart was set up to describe the Ig/ig or Ig/Ig birds since there is a gap from 50%-100% which all the gold birds would probably fall into.

I am still a long way off from talking about shades of Cream, but in 5-10 years when I get to that point I though this type of chart would be intended for that purpose.

I have noticed red enhanced birds (cinnamon in the chick down, red on the throat of the hens, ginger on the crest of hens and cockerels, ginger barring on the saddle feathers of cockerels, etc. ) and birds with out red enhancement. A cream bird with red enhancement may look more like 50% where a cream bird with out red enhancement may look more like 20% and a cream bird with additional dilutors of gold may look like the 0%. All of these are just examples. I really have no test results of observations to be able to determine what genotype makes each of the colors on the chart above. Fortunately I don't have to know the genetic formula. I just need to know how my flock breeds and what their tendencies are in the offspring to get the colors I want.

 

[ChicKat]

Cream Legbars are ig/ig - double cream 100% cream gene
or Ig/ig (ig/-) single cream 50% cream gene but will still look gold in the phenotype
Ig/Ig (-/-) no cream gene 0% cream - gold phenotype.

I am not understanding the % breakdown as it does not match with the genotype of the bird and while ig is a diluter it will 'cover' and eliminate the gold in the phenotype but there are still other enhnacers, diluters and melanizers that affect the look of the phenotype. Just looking at a bird's plumage may give only partial indication of the underlying genetics.

Exactly my point, thanks blackbirds13. It isn't possible to look at a bird and have 100% accuracy of knowing what the genetics are. If there happens to be a split, and the chicken has one 'cream gene' - it should look like a chicken that has no cream genes. (Unless as GaryDean26 mentions there are other factors at work). Thanks for the observation. Especially with photos, on computer screens, no one can truly tell the genetics of a chicken pictured. :O)

I may have missed something (I have been doing a lot of skimming and skipping).

I didn't think the percentage break down had anything to do with the genotype. I was thinking this was something like the Araucana color cards. A way to describe a the phenotype ( 20 different shades of blue/green eggs even though all of the birds are assumed to be O/O in the genotype and similarly 8 shades of cream even though all the birds are assumed to be ig/ig) .

I assumed that you could say that the color of you flocks was in the 10-25% range to describe the shades of cream you are seeing, or you could say that you flock was in the 33-45% range.

It didn't look like this chart was set up to describe the Ig/ig or Ig/Ig birds since there is a gap from 50%-100% which all the gold birds would probably fall into.

I am still a long way off from talking about shades of Cream, but in 5-10 years when I get to that point I though this type of chart would be intended for that purpose.

I have noticed red enhanced birds (cinnamon in the chick down, red on the throat of the hens, ginger on the crest of hens and cockerels, ginger barring on the saddle feathers of cockerels, etc. ) and birds with out red enhancement. A cream bird with red enhancement may look more like 50% where a cream bird with out red enhancement may look more like 20% and a cream bird with additional dilutors of gold may look like the 0%. All of these are just examples. I really have no test results of observations to be able to determine what genotype makes each of the colors on the chart above. Fortunately I don't have to know the genetic formula. I just need to know how my flock breeds and what their tendencies are in the offspring to get the colors I want.

Thanks GaryDean26-- it is exactly designed as a way to discuss appearances. And the egg chart is a good parallel example -- you are a gentleman and a scholar...and no wonder you are pres of the Cream Legbar Club!!

If I look at the Cream Legbar Club's Website on the home page, I see "Lillian", no doubt a Cream Legbar, a prize winner in the UK in -- was it 2012? - To my eyes, from that photo, on my monitor, Lillian looks to be showing (notice I said showing?) an appearance of about 45% of the underlying gold that is in her genetics. Does that mean that Lillian isn't a CL? I think it just means that there are factors at work on her plumage, as GaryDean said - that influence her wing and back feathers. The chart is designed for discussion purposes, and for one's own evaluation of one's own birds.... If I thought "Lillian" was the quintessential CL female - I may say I am targeting 45% -- or if I look at the middle row on that grid - then I may target there for my plans.

When someone says a bird is gold -- they would have to match the upper left corner... a crele plumage pattern with a gold-dickwing base. If someone says the bird is silver, it would need to match the lower right image... no -gold showing. I think most CLs will probably NOT match either of the book-ends. JMO

Thanks!

ETA - I base Lillian's gold dilution due to her cream genetics providing the appearance that she shows mainly on her wing and back feathers -- And I think that some while ago dretd brought up the differeing shades of taupe and it was discussed--- but I don't think it was parsed out quite like the chart does it -- and this may be a really good way to see how diluted the gold on a hen is.

 

[GaryDean26]

Thanks for the clarifications on the chart.

By the way, the chart look well done and should be a good reference for talking about the birds. Instead of confusing people by saying their bird is too colorful, say that they aren't pure, etc. they can simply see the 100% as what the "Gold" Legbar is supposed to look like, the 0% as what a "Silver" Legbar is supposed to look like, and the 10-50% range as where a the distinct colored "cream" Legbars should fall into.