The Mating And Breeding Of Poultry Thread!!!

Discussion in 'General breed discussions & FAQ' started by MANOZ, Oct 5, 2010.

  1. MANOZ

    MANOZ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    ANYONE READ THIS CLASSICAL BOOK

    http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi...rm=frameset;view=image;seq=6;page=root;size=s

    HERE'S THE LINK.I HAVE FOUND IT TO BE VERY INFORMATIVE.I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF SOME OF YOU HAVE READ THIS BOOK,IT IS FREE AND U CAN READ IT ONLINE,I THINK NO MATTER WHAT BREED U HAVE,WITH THE INFORMATION PRESENTED IN THE BOOK ONE CAN IMPROVE ANY LINE AND ANY BREED....I DECIDED TO MAKE THIS A THREAD BECAUSE THIS KNOWLEDGE HAS TO BE KEPT ALIVE.I WOULD ADVISE ALL NEWBIES TO TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS BOOK AND I WOULD ADVISE ALL ELDERS TO ADD IMPUT AS WELL.IF WHATS IN THIS GREAT WORK WAS THE STANDARD OF POULTRY,HOW FAR HAVE WE COME SINCE 1923 ?WHEN THE BOOK WAS PUBLISHED.HOW MUCH DIFFERENT ARE WE TODAY WHEN IT COMES TO FEEDING OURSELVES? AS A REFERENCE FOR ME,IT TOOK ME TO LOOK TO THE PAST! WHAT HAPPENED TO THE MATING AND BREEDING OF POULTRY?
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  2. NYREDS

    NYREDS Overrun With Chickens

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    This book is the "Bible" of poultry breeding & is worth reading. For those who prefer a book in hand it's been reprinted in paperback.
     
  3. MANOZ

    MANOZ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    [​IMG] THIS IS A BREEDING CHART FOUND IN THE BOOK. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE NICE TO HAVE IT SOMEWHERE ON THE SITE.THIS WAY WE CAN ALL GET A VISUAL OF SIMPLE BREEDING METHODS

    ACCORDING TO THE BOOK: "LINE BREEDING IS A FORM OF SYSTEMATIC INBREEDING IN WHICH AN EFFORT IS MADE TO KEEP AWAY FROM TOO CLOSE INBREEDING.IT IS REALLY IN ITS ORDINARY USE,BREEDING CONFINED TO THE BLOOD LINES OF A SINGLE FAMILY.THE DETAILS OF THIS PRACTICE VARY CONSIDERABLY WITH THE DIFFERENT BREEDERS,BUT THE PURPOSE IS THE SAME IN EACH CASE,NAMELY,TO AVOID THE NECESSITY OF INTRODUCING BLOOD OF ANOTHER STRAIN OR FAMILY WITH THE DISASTROUS RESULTS TO THE UNIFORMITY OF THE STRAIN WHICH OFTEN ACCOMPANIES SUCH AN INTRODUCTION OF BLOOD.LINE BREEDING, WHETHER KNOWN BY THIS NAME OR NOT, IS ALMOST UNIVERSALLY USED BY SUCCESSFUL BREEDERS,BUT IS OFTEN ACCOMPANIED BY THE OCCASIONAL AND JUDICIOUS INTRODUCTIONOF OUTSIDE BLOOD.THE CHART SHOWS ONE METHOD OF LINE BREEDING.

    IN THIS CHART, CIRCLE#1 REPRESENTS A MALE AND CIRCLE#2 A FEMALE, WHOSE BLOOD IT IS DESIRED TO USE IN THE LINE BREEDING WITHOUT THE INTRODUCTION OR AT ANY RATE WITHOUT THE FREQUENT INTRODUCTION OF NEW BLOOD.

    MALE #1 MATED WITH FEMALE#2 GIVES OFFSPRING #3,WHICH ARE ONE-HALF EACH OF THE BLOOD OF THE MALE AND THE FEMALE.

    A MALE FROM #3 MATED WITH THE ORIGINAL FEMALE#2 GIVES OFFSPRING #6,WHICH ARE THREE-QUARTERS OF THE BLOOD OF THE FAMALE.

    SIMILARLY,A FEMALE FROM #3 MATED WITH THE ORIGINAL MALE #1 GIVES OFFSPRING #4,WHICH ARE THREE-QUARTERS OF THE BLOOD OF THE MALE.

    AS WILL BE APPARENT FROM THE CHART, VARIOUS OTHER MATINGS ARE POSSIBLE AND EVEN SOME WHICH ARE NOT SHOWN

    [I ASK THE ELDERS TO SHOW OR EXPLAIN THESE OTHER MATINGS],

    ALL OF WHICH WOULD HAVE THE EFFECT OF PRODUCING OFFSPRING WITH VARYING PREPONDERANCE OF THE MALE BLOOD. EXACTLY SIMILAR MATINGS ARE POSSIBLE AS SHOWN WHICH WILL RESULT IN THE SAME PREPONDERANCE OF THE BLOOD OF THE FEMALE. AT ANY TIME, BY MATING INDIVIDUALS FROM GROUPS WHICH SHOW ON THE ONE HAND A CERTAIN PROPORTION OF THE MALE BLOOD AND THE OTHER HAND THE SAME PROPORTION OF THE FEMALE BLOOD, IT IS POSSIBLE TO GET BACK TO THE HALF BLOOD BASIS. THUS, A MALE FROM GROUP #7 MATED WITH A FEMALE FROM GROUP 8 RESULTS IN THE HALF BLOODS OF GROUP #10. SIMILARLY A MALE FROM GROUP #9 MATED WITH A FEMALE FROM GROUP#11 RESULTS IN THE HALF BLOODS OF GROUP #14.

    IT WILL BE NOTED FROM THE CHART THAT IN THE LINE BREEDING IT IS POSSIBLE BY BEGINING WITH TWO INDIVIDUALS OR TWO BLOOD LINES TO KEEP THE MATINGS WITHIN THESE TWO LINES,BUT TO HAVE A WIDE VARIATION IN THE PROPORTION OF EACH IN THE STOCK.

    IT IS POSSIBLE TO BREED BACK TOWARD THE MALE LINE TO SUCH AN EXTENT AS TO ELIMINATE LARGELY THE FEMALE BLOOD OR TO DO THE SAME THING TOWARD THE FEMALE LINE.WHEN A GROUP IS SECURED WITH SUCH A PROPORTION OR MIXTURE OF BLOOD AS TO GIVE OUTSTANDING RESULTS IT IS POSSIBLE TO CONTINUE THE BREEDING SO AS TO HOLD THE SAME PROPORTION OF BLOOD AS LONG AS DESIRED OR AS LONG AS THERE IS NO SIGN OF DETRIMENT. THIS CAN BE EASILY ACCOMPLISHED BY SELECTING FOR A MATING BOTH MALES AND FEMALES FROM THE SAME GROUP."

    [I BELIEVE THIS ENDS ALL PURE BREED VS MUTT DEBATES!!!!!!!}

    THE BOOK GOES ON TO SAY:"BECAUSE EACH PARENT HAS THE SAME PROPORTION OF BLOOD, THE OFFSPRING WILL LIKEWISE CARRY THIS SAME PROPORTION.THUS, A MALE FROM GROUP #3 MATED WITH A FEMALE FROM GROUP #3 RESULTS IN OFFSPRING #5, WHICH HAVE ONE-HALF OF THE BLOOD OF MALE AND FEMALE LINES ALIKE THE SAME AS THE PARENT STOCK.

    IN THE SAME WAY A MALE FROM GROUP #9 MATED WITH A FEMALE FROM GROUP#9 WOULD RESULT IN OFFSPRING HAVING 13-16THS OF THE BLOOD OF THE MALE LINE.

    [ IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECT DOES THIS NOT IDENTIFY PUREBRED AS WELL AS MUTTS....IF I TAKE THE CHART WITH TWO DIFFERENT BLOOD LINES, THEIR OFFSPRING WHICH IS HALF AND HALF WOULD BE CONSIDERED WHAT TODAY IS CALLED A MUTT, BUT IF THOSE MUTTS PROVE TO BE AN OUTSTANDING FLOCK OF BIRDS. THEN I CAN BREED MALE AND FEMALE FROM THE SAME FLOCK WHICH WOULD HATCH OFFSPRING WITH THE SAME HALF AND HALF BLOOD THUS RESULTING IN BEING "TRUE". THEN IF I CONTINUE THE SAME PROCESS THEY WILL ALWAYS BREED TRUE OR PURE. LONG LIVE THE MUTTS!!LOL}
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  4. MANOZ

    MANOZ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    So A PURE Breed Is Nothing But A Half And Half Blood Line Mass Produced
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  5. Chris09

    Chris09 Circle (M) Ranch

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    I thought I would jump in here and help some...
    Here is some information I been holding on too and can be also be found at https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=343605 .

    BREEDERS v. WINNERS. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    Once we have in our possession first class specimens we must
    know how to look after them. To allow exhibition males to run
    with the hens during the whole year would naturally prove weakening.
    We must nurse the stamina of both sexes by separating male
    from females immediately the breeding season is over. Cockerel
    boxes are handy at this time and the surplus males can be placed
    therein when the breeding pens are " broken up." Then again
    there is that bug-bear " overshowing." The big man can afford to
    overshow his birds, at least so it would appear, for he has equally
    good birds at home. Not so with the small man or breeder who
    has not established his strain. In many cases I could quote, this
    overshowing would appear to be merely for the purpose of “cup-hunting”
    or prize-money getting and is to be deprecated. It is
    naturally a great mistake to overshow any specimens, especially if
    required for breeding purposes, and the good " sportsman " will be
    content to show his breeders but a few times in the year. If the
    owner is keen on showing, he will reserve a few of his tip-top birds
    for exhibiting only and not trouble to disorganize his breeding
    pens by showing any of the inmates during the breeding operations.
    This is as it should be.
    A few outings prior to the breeding season will not do harm
    It is usually thought by the tyro that Fanciers continually exhibit
    their best birds. This is far from actual facts. The sporting fancier usually has as good birds at home as those he is exhibiting,
    and this should be followed by those who would be successful in
    their breeding operations. Reserve a few " cracks " for exhibiting
    in order to keep before the public's eye.

    WHAT IS SINGLE MATING?The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    In certain breeds the standard decrees that the characteristics
    of the male and female should be different, which necessitates
    double-mating, explained below. Where the standard for the
    two sexes is practically the same, then single mating is sufficient.
    By single mating I mean the breeding of both sexes as exhibition
    specimens from one mating or single pen of birds.

    WHAT IS DOUBLE MATING? The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    Double-mating means the mating of two pens, one to produce
    exhibition cockerels and the other exhibition pullets. This process
    of breeding has done much to spoil many good old breeds, for
    few little men have accommodation sufficient to keep two pens.
    Many poultry fanciers give this double-mating question some
    hard knocks, but we have only the Club Standards to blame. When
    a new breed comes into being, the first desire of the faddists is to
    draw up a standard that is hard to breed to. They contend that
    it is better to have a breed that is difficult to obtain high-class
    specimens of, than where we can easily breed winners. As things
    are at present, double-mating is necessary in many breeds, and
    I leave it at that.
    In the case of laced varieties, such as the beautiful Gold and
    Silver Laced Wyandottes, we have perforce to adopt the double mating
    principles. If we mated the Palace winning Cock to the
    Palace winning Pullet we should breed birds that were of very
    inferior quality. By fitting up a cockerel-breeding pen and a pullet breeding
    pen our chances are excellent. In the cockerel-breeding
    pen of any variety the male will be a tip-top show specimen and
    his mates females that are not show birds, but merely breeders
    likely to throw high-class cockerels when mated to the exhibition
    male. The pullets from this mating will, of course, be " duds”
    and not fit for show purposes. The females in the pullet-breeding
    pen will all be first-class exhibition birds and the male not a show
    bird, but a breeder most likely to breed tip-top exhibition pullets.
    The cockerels from this mating will be " duds " and unfit for the
    show bench. The whole modus operandi can be thinned down to
    this :—The cockerel-breeding male must possess all the necessary
    characteristics to breed exhibition cockerels, whilst the pullet breeding
    male must boast of those characteristics that will go to
    breed exhibition pullets. The system is not so complicated as it
    would appear at first sight and is interesting to follow out, but there
    must, of course, be many " wasters " in the progeny—whether
    male or female respectively. In many cases fanciers are satisfied
    with breeding one sex only and winning honors with same. They
    specialize in pullets or cockerels, keeping the pullet-breeders or
    cockerel-breeders only as the case may be. This naturally does
    not entail so much work as would be necessary if the two sorts
    were bred.

    WHAT IS IN-BREEDING. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    Novices are apt to be misled by the term " in-breed." To
    serve as an illustration I will deal with " in-breeding " and then
    " Line-breeding." In-breeding generally speaking is the mating of
    brother and sister and is not to be recommended. Many fanciers
    do in-breed I know, but whilst this mating of brother and sister is
    likely to breed progeny possessing the qualities of each other,
    disease can easily follow in its train. This is amply proved if we
    mate a laying hen to her brother, for the result will more often
    than not be fewer eggs from the progeny. If we continue the inbreeding
    the next generation would be puny things and very inferior
    layers. The same applies to in-breeding in exhibition birds ; if it is
    practiced it must not be overdone, but on the other hand kept well
    in check. To in-breed once in a way may be the means of fixing
    a certain quality that the breeder could not obtain from any other
    mating. All the other excellent points were in his birds with the
    exception of the one for which he in-bred. This as I have said
    may be all right within reason, but should not be encouraged too
    much. In such cases make sure that the birds being mated up
    are vigorous and healthy in every organ and limb ; this will assist
    matters.

    THREE WAYS OF IN-BREEDING. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    " In-breeding," says Mr. Harry R. Lewis" commonly means
    the mating of individuals related for one generation. In-and-in
    breeding indicates those showing a longer period and closer degree
    of relationship. Three ways of in-breeding are:
    [​IMG]
    In-breeding chart showing distribution of inherited 'characters. The black
    denotes the blood lines of the male and the white those of the female. The
    solid black lines show that a male has been chosen from the group from
    which they start and the dotted lines a female
    X-Male. O-Female.

    1. Breeding sire and daughter which produces ¼
    blood like the mother.
    2. Breeding son and mother which produces progeny
    with ¾ blood of the mother.
    3. Breeding brother and sister which gives progeny with
    blood lines from both sire and dam in equal proportions.
    The latter (No. 3) is the mating referred to above as
    undesirable. It is often adopted by breeders of both
    Fancy stock and heavy egg-producers, but it must
    not be over done. He must be sure of the vigour of
    the parent stock, else this fault will be intensified in
    the progeny.

    ESTABLISHING A STRAIN. The A.B.C. of Breeding Poultry for Exhibition, Egg-Production and Table Purposes [​IMG] 1919
    Strain is another word for pedigree and if we start with two
    unrelated birds, build them up for successive generations so as to
    throw the points we desire, we have established a strain. In
    starting line-breeding we can commence with several hens or pullets
    as one of the units, but all should be related (sisters) and of the
    same breeding. It is best to get unrelated stock as the foundation
    i.e., buy the male from one source and the female or females from
    a different breeder. We must select these original units for " like
    begets like " and as we go on each year certain points must be bred
    for and perfected. Unlike cannot beget like, for how could a
    White Dotte mated to a White Leghorn breed pure White
    Wyandottes ? My readers must not suppose that line-breeding
    solves the breeding-of-winners problem. By taking two medium
    quality White Wyandottes and line-breeding without selection of
    type, color, etc., we shall be no nearer our goal in ten years' time.
    Line-breeding preserves the qualities in a strain ; if we start with
    tip-top birds we shall soon breed tip-top birds, if with inferior stock
    those that are inferior. Start with high-class original parents
    and select rigorously each mating for type, color, etc. One thing
    can be said of such a system of line-breeding, and that is, that when
    a winner is once bred, it is bred, and other winners will follow.

    Basics in Down Genes

    All chickens have black and red (gold). These are the only colors in chickens. All the different patterns and colors depend on either restricting or enhancing these two colors.

    THE DOWN GENES —

    • E--extended black. dominate Chicks are hatched as black. In adult hood they are black with red (gold) or white (silver) in the hackles and saddles. (polecats, furriness) My Mottles have E.
    • e Wh -- dominate wheaten. Chicks hatch out as whitish. adults are: males: red hackle and saddle without stripping. Breast, tail, and wing bows black. Females: Wheat colored to reddish. Black restricted to the wings and tail. Example Wheaten. My Mille Fleurs have e wh.
    • e+ --wild. Chicks are brown like chipmunks when hatched, with striped head and back. In adult hood males: Much like the wheaten males above, but the red is not quite so bright. Females: Brownish with very fine black penciling on body. Breast is salmon Example Black Breasted Red/ Silver Ducklings.e b --dark brown. Chicks striped back with a blurred head. Adults males: as above. Females as above but have a red/brown breast instead of salmon.
    • e bc -- buttercup. Chicks as chicks above but the yellowish white stripe is wider. Head stripe is broken and irregular. Adults as above.
    • e y --recessive wheaten. chicks are white. Adults are like above but the red is darker and both sexes have striping in the saddle and hackle.

    These are the foundation that the other genes work with to give us the colors and patterns that we enjoy in chickens. Extended black is the only dominate gene in this group. The others are incomplete dominate. A chick with 2 different down genes will show traits of each.


    ENHANCERS OF BLACK —

    • mi -- Melanotic. recessive This gene allows for the normally red areas of chickens to be black. (Melanotic plus E = a black bird).

    DILUTERS OF BLACK —[/b

    • Bl --Andalusin blue. One gene to a black bird will be blue. Two genes will be splash. See blue gene. One of my favorite genes. Without it I would only have Mottled and Mille Fleur. It changes a Mille Fleur to a Blue Mille Fleur of Golden Neck depending on the number of genes present. It also changes a Mottled to a Blue Mottled.
    • Co --Columbian dominate. Removes black to the hackle and tail. Makes for the male to have a white or buff breast. Males and females have same color instead of being different. This changes a Wheaten bird to a Buff Columbian
    • Db --Dark Brown. dominate Reported by Moore and Smyth (1972) makes a male into a black tailed white or buff or red while not removing all the stripping from the body of the female. A gene I'm not familiar with.
    • Ii -- Dominate white. effective in changing black to white but not so good on red e.g. creaminess on whites. Birds with Ii will have some black spots on breast. Used for Red Pyle Old English Game.
    • Er -- Erminette -- dominate. Reported by Hutt (1964) A heterozygous pattern Most feathers are white with the rest being black. Double dose birds are all white. Not a gene that I'm familiar with.
    • pi --Pied -- recessive Black and white are evenly marked. Best known example is Exchequer Leghorn. Another gene that I'm not familiar with.
    • Sd -- Sex Link Dilution. Reported by Munro (1946) Closely associated with Sex Linked Barring (B) Sd males are barred, Sd Sd males are white. Sd females are bluish ghost barred, sd females are barred. Another gene that I'm not familiar with.

    RESTRICTORS OF BLACK AND RED —

    • B -- Sex Link Barring-- dominate. "puts" white bars on the feather. Best example Barred Plymouth Rocks. Males can have 1 or 2 genes. Hence dark and light barred males. Females only 1. Males pass trait to sons and daughters. Females pass trait on to sons. Also effects red by having white bars on red feather. Best example Creel Old English Game.
    • mo -- Mottled --recessive. Makes a black bar with white spot below, at end of feather. Another one of my favorites. Without it I would only have Black and Buff Columbian (changes a black bird to a Mottled and a Buff Columbian bird to a Mille Fleur) .

    DILUTERS OF BLACK AND GOLD —

    • cc -- Recessive white --Changes both black and red to white. Working with recessive white can be tricky as it "white washes" a bird. It may have the phenotype of a totally different color or even a nonstandard color underneath the white. The only way to determine what the white is hiding is to mate it to a black bird. You can get barred, polecats, etc.
    •lav -- lavender.-- recessive. Black becomes gray and red feathers become cream.
    • rs -- red-splashed white. recessive Reported by Quinn (1934) A bird with 2 genes is reported to be white with splashes of red and black. Know nothing about this one either.

    SEX LINK GOLD —

    • G- --This is the second basic color of chickens (Black is the first) This makes for a buff colored bird (along with another gene) or causes the red in the red areas of the red and black bird.

    ENHANCERS OF GOLD —

    • ar -- Autosomal Red. -- Reported by Hutt (1949) In theory only. Independent of Sex Link Gold (red) as Silver doesn't effect it. Suggested that this makes for the Golden Duckwing Group. Personally know nothing about it. But suspect that Mh (mahogany) might do the same trick.
    • Mh --Mahogany. -- dominate. Makes for a dark red bird. Best known example : Rhode Island Red.

    RESTRICTORS OF GOLD —

    • S -- Sex Link Silver Incomplete dominate. Opposite of Sex Linked Gold. Changes gold to silver. Females have one gene. Males have 2 (or can have 1 of each). If a male has 1 for gold and one for silver his saddle and hackle is creamish. Changes a Black Breasted Red to Silver Duckwing or a Golden Sebright to a Silver Sebright.

    DILUTERS OF GOLD —

    • ig -- cream recessive. Reported by Punnett (1948) Described as introducing a rich cream to gold or a pale silver to silver. Know nothing about this one.
    • Di -- Dilute-- dominate Reported by Brumbaugh and Hollander Makes a red/gold bird into a buff. Another one that I haven't worked with.
    • cb -- champagne blond -- recessive. Also reported by Brumbaugh and Hollander. Reported to do the same as above. I tend to support this for Buffs from some breeding/crossing that I have done with Buff Plymouth Rocks, that there is a recessive gene that dilutes gold to a warm buff.

    However some authors -- Somes and Smyth (1965) report that buffs carry a suppressor of red.


    SECONDARY PATTERNS —

    • Ab -- autosomal barring. Another gene I know nothing about.
    • Lg -- lacing. dominate gives the Partridge Plymouth Rock females the lacing pattern. Same for Silver Penciled Plymouth Rocks.
    • Sp -- spangling. dominate. Jeffery call this trait a pattern. I think of it as black restrictor. It removes black from all of the feather except the very end making a black inverted V. Best known examples Silver Spangled Hamburg and Golden Spangled Hamburg.

    Above information found on ultimatefowl wiki

    All the above information can all so be found on my sticky https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=343605

    Chris
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2010
  6. Firearia

    Firearia Chillin' With My Peeps

    Very helpful! Thanks for showing us!! [​IMG]
     
  7. MANOZ

    MANOZ Chillin' With My Peeps

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    Indeed, Thank You For That Wealth Of Knowledge
     
  8. bacres

    bacres Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 13, 2010
    East Pennsylvania
    What breeds do you suggest using the double mating method for? Silkies? Rosecombs?
     
  9. bacres

    bacres Chillin' With My Peeps

    Mar 13, 2010
    East Pennsylvania
    No one?
     
  10. HallFamilyFarm

    HallFamilyFarm PA ETL#195

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    Collins, Arkansas
    There are a few shows this weekend. Many may be headed to them.
     

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