The Moonshiner's Leghorns

[The Moonshiner]

Yeah
Mine are all always pretty solid Grey. Maybe Grey and white, but never Grey and black

Yours sound broken. Replace them.

 

[MACCanadianCoop]

Yours sound broken. Replace them.

Well how can she when you won't send her any hatching eggs?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Yours sound broken. Replace them.

They're hatchery and mixes, so maybe that's part of it. They're mostly just blues smashed against blues. No Blacks to help the coloring

 

[RiverOtter]

Solid white ones don't. They have a base color and a modifier to appear solid white.

I'm going to have to disagree. I'm not saying that the base color and modifier isn't the most common beastie mistaken for white, I've a cremello and 2 perlinos in my pasture right now.

I am saying that while it's a theory that there is no albino in horses, it is a baseless theory. All we actually know is that there's no record of true-breeding albinos. And there is absolutely no reason to expect there to be, because 1) Albinism in all species is rare. There is also no record of true breeding albino falcons, but we don't say they do not, have not and will never exist.
2) We are well aware that color mutations can be linked to other mutations, and those mutations can be harmful (some mutations for the color blue/isabella in dogs is fine, some cause hair and tooth loss. Merle on a solid dog (catahoula) reacts differently than merle in a breed that carries the Irish White Spotting gene (Aussies). There is no reason to believe that, in the already rare case of an albino horse being born, that it would be a healthy enough animal to breed.
3) Until VERY recently, horses were utilitarian animals. Most climates and cultures had a distinct dislike of light colored/skinned horses. It is in living memory that paints born to QHs were shot at birth. Many still believe - and there is some truth to it, but our lives no longer depend on a horse being able to put in a full days work - that even too many white markings brought down a horses value, ie, white hooves are weaker. My buckskin paint needs, needs a sheepskin covered girth - weakness like that would have made him not worth feeding not long ago. My oldest gray has melanomas, ever met a bay with them? Being able to keep a horse that can't literally pull it's weight is a very, very recent luxury. Which again, points to; in the rare case a true albino occurred, there is no reason to think it would be bred or even allowed to live to maturity.
4) Because there are so many things in horses that look white, because genetic testing is so new, and because such a small percentage of horses are ever color tested, that white gelding you drive past on your way to wherever might very well be an albino, and none of us would ever know. All we can say is "This horse that I have put my hands on/worked/tested isn't an albino." We can't also say "Therefore we may conclude albinos don't exist" And again, "white" horses that aren't gray are themselves rare enough that most of us come across very few of them. For 2 years I trained at a stable that had at least 120 horses and could house 140 if there was a show and ONE horse came through there that looked white and wasn't a gray. Could he have been an albino? Maybe, he was a warmblood in the early 90s, so it wasn't likely to be the cream gene. But without going back in time and using the tests we have now, we'll never know, Would he ever have been bred? Hell no, he was lucky to have even been shown, and I remember his owner complaining that most dressage judges would mark him down, bringing us back to "for most of history no one liked white horses"

Genetics and history of agriculture are both passions of mine.

 

[WallyG74]

You lost me at am.

 

[Painted Calls]

I'm going to have to disagree. I'm not saying that the base color and modifier isn't the most common beastie mistaken for white, I've a cremello and 2 perlinos in my pasture right now.

I am saying that while it's a theory that there is no albino in horses, it is a baseless theory. All we actually know is that there's no record of true-breeding albinos. And there is absolutely no reason to expect there to be, because 1) Albinism in all species is rare. There is also no record of true breeding albino falcons, but we don't say they do not, have not and will never exist.
2) We are well aware that color mutations can be linked to other mutations, and those mutations can be harmful (some mutations for the color blue/isabella in dogs is fine, some cause hair and tooth loss. Merle on a solid dog (catahoula) reacts differently than merle in a breed that carries the Irish White Spotting gene (Aussies). There is no reason to believe that, in the already rare case of an albino horse being born, that it would be a healthy enough animal to breed.
3) Until VERY recently, horses were utilitarian animals. Most climates and cultures had a distinct dislike of light colored/skinned horses. It is in living memory that paints born to QHs were shot at birth. Many still believe - and there is some truth to it, but our lives no longer depend on a horse being able to put in a full days work - that even too many white markings brought down a horses value, ie, white hooves are weaker. My buckskin paint needs, needs a sheepskin covered girth - weakness like that would have made him not worth feeding not long ago. My oldest gray has melanomas, ever met a bay with them? Being able to keep a horse that can't literally pull it's weight is a very, very recent luxury. Which again, points to; in the rare case a true albino occurred, there is no reason to think it would be bred or even allowed to live to maturity.
4) Because there are so many things in horses that look white, because genetic testing is so new, and because such a small percentage of horses are ever color tested, that white gelding you drive past on your way to wherever might very well be an albino, and none of us would ever know. All we can say is "This horse that I have put my hands on/worked/tested isn't an albino." We can't also say "Therefore we may conclude albinos don't exist" And again, "white" horses that aren't gray are themselves rare enough that most of us come across very few of them. For 2 years I trained at a stable that had at least 120 horses and could house 140 if there was a show and ONE horse came through there that looked white and wasn't a gray. Could he have been an albino? Maybe, he was a warmblood in the early 90s, so it wasn't likely to be the cream gene. But without going back in time and using the tests we have now, we'll never know, Would he ever have been bred? Hell no, he was lucky to have even been shown, and I remember his owner complaining that most dressage judges would mark him down, bringing us back to "for most of history no one liked white horses"

Genetics and history of agriculture are both passions of mine.

I never said anything about albino. I said white. Do I believe albino horses exist? Never heard of one but honestly I'm not sure. I'm going to say probably not or I'd have heard about it by now. Feel free to disagree. I've studied horse genetics for a long time. Genetically white horses have yet to be documented except in OLWS cases. Those horses are white. They also are born without a full digestive tract and have to be culled or they suffer and die.

You have 2 double dilutes. I'm not talking about those either. Those aren't white. The layman might call those white as most would also call a gray horse white. I'm talking about an actual genetically white horse that is not dominant white or maxed out sabino.

I am no longer in the horse world much apart from my own animals. However I used to be thick into the APHA world. I have seen quite a few horses that would appear white. Look close enough in the right places and you will find that they were not. Just very white sabinos. The horse you mention was likely a dominate white. They are rare but they occur.

 

[Amer]

Huh. I saw a horse exhibited as white. Now I see it probably wasn’t the correct term.

 

[Painted Calls]

Huh. I saw a horse exhibited as white. Now I see it probably wasn’t the correct term.

It's common to just call things what we visually see them. I'm just a nerd so I go a bit deeper.

Colt keeps posting a David Attenborough clip that features him calling horses white. I refuse to watch it lol.

 

[Painted Calls]

Huh. I saw a horse exhibited as white. Now I see it probably wasn’t the correct term.

It also may have been dom white.

 

[RiverOtter]

I never said anything about albino. I said white.

Ok, define white. I said albino, because it's basically the consensus that in mammals, albino is defined as genetic white, it is also defined as white hair, pink skin and non-pigmented eyes (which do not always appear pink/red)

I've studied horse genetics for a long time.

Me too. Professionally since 1993 when I begin my degree. I remember when color testing was first being developed, they were requesting that if your horse died to please have the vet collect a 2"x2" square of hide and document the breed, if known.

Genetically white horses have yet to be documented except in OLWS cases. Those horses are white. They also are born without a full digestive tract and have to be culled or they suffer and die.

See, I would not define those horses as white. Like my double dilutes, they have 2 copies of a moderator gene. Two copies of the overo spotting genes happen to cause incomplete development in the womb because of the way that spotting gene affects development. It works by shutting off development. First to the hair, then to the hide (which is what causes the shadowing) and with 2 copies it just keeps going.