The Moonshiner's Leghorns

[sean_wonder]

I go to one show a year just as a spectator. It's a decent APA show. I saw an Ameraucana win that had a brown egg in her cage.
One year I saw a lavender Orpington win as a blue.

What??? Brown egg??? That makes no sense… how could she win if she’s breaking the SOP?

 

[Chookwagn]

I bet the brown egg was a prank...
My brother pranked my by putting an Ameraucana bantam egg in my d'Anver's cage once. With the lighting I didn't realize it was blue egg, I just thought it was white. I was like "Praline laid a white egg!" IDK
People just be switching their eggs between cages.
Mostly, I doubt an Ameraucana laid a brown egg because it's kind of rare that even Easter Eggers do, and Ameraucanas were bred from EEs.
Also in my experience chickens be shoving the eggs between cages...

A lavender Orpington won as a blue? :/ I've never even seen one that looks as typey as a blue.

Aren't they called Pekins over there? I don't know.

Either way, Wyandottes and Cochins do not have similar type at all... If anyone tells you they have the same kind of tail, they're wrong. Because Wyandottes are actually supposed to have stiff tail feathers it's just a lot of them don't.

Correct they are called Pekins over here but to help you mericans understand i use your language

And yes I agree they should be quite different but.... "well known breeders aren't wrong" right?

 

[Amer]

What??? Brown egg??? That makes no sense… how could she win if she’s breaking the SOP?

Well, technically, the SOP never said anything about judging a bird by whatever egg was sitting in the cage.

Correct they are called Pekins over here but to help you mericans understand i use your language

And yes I agree they should be quite different but.... "well known breeders aren't wrong" right?

Thank you for using the correct terminology.

 

[KF0002]

I brought some birds.... BCs off a well known breeder.... he showed Bantam Wyandottes and BCs the only difference was the comb and he would pluck the feathers off the legs of the Wyandottes before the show. He just bred a rose comb into the BCs

Wow. That is crooked as a dog's hind leg. lol You read about "faking" in the SOP and how it is a DQ. I encountered several people as I was learning about showing who recommended things like plucking white feathers as one example, as white in non-white birds is a DQ. They told me that losing a few points on a bird missing a feather was better than getting a DQ for the white feather. The standard allows for, I think, only one inch or less of white in the base of the tail feathers of males of certain varieties like Brown Leghorns, for example. Anymore white than that would be a DQ. Plucking = faking. I could never get on board with that kind of dishonesty.

 

[KF0002]

I bet the brown egg was a prank...
My brother pranked my by putting an Ameraucana bantam egg in my d'Anver's cage once. With the lighting I didn't realize it was blue egg, I just thought it was white. I was like "Praline laid a white egg!" IDK
People just be switching their eggs between cages.
Mostly, I doubt an Ameraucana laid a brown egg because it's kind of rare that even Easter Eggers do, and Ameraucanas were bred from EEs.
Also in my experience chickens be shoving the eggs between cages...

A lavender Orpington won as a blue? :/ I've never even seen one that looks as typey as a blue.

Aren't they called Pekins over there? I don't know.

Either way, Wyandottes and Cochins do not have similar type at all... If anyone tells you they have the same kind of tail, they're wrong. Because Wyandottes are actually supposed to have stiff tail feathers it's just a lot of them don't.

I would feel better about the whole thing if the tinted egg thing was a prank. However, we watched the hen lay the egg. I promise you. 100% without a shadow of doubt she laid the egg.

 

[KF0002]

What??? Brown egg??? That makes no sense… how could she win if she’s breaking the SOP?

Because the judges only judge the type, color, size, and phenotypical characteristics. Its crooked I tell you. lol

 

[Amer]

Wow. That is crooked as a dog's hind leg. lol You read about "faking" in the SOP and how it is a DQ. I encountered several people as I was learning about showing who recommended things like plucking white feathers as one example, as white in non-white birds is a DQ. They told me that losing a few points on a bird missing a feather was better than getting a DQ for the white feather. The standard allows for, I think, only one inch or less of white in the base of the tail feathers of males of certain varieties like Brown Leghorns, for example. Anymore white than that would be a DQ. Plucking = faking. I could never get on board with that kind of dishonesty.

I'm going to say something controversial
Unless it's vulture hocks or a wing or main tail feather, plucking is just grooming, not faking.
If plucking equalled faking it would be impossible for barred Plymouth Rocks or white crested black Polish to compete because they have very complex colors and extra black feathers are common. That said, they are accepted in the standard they just don't look nice...
Now if someone is intentionally decieving, that is faking, of course.
But it is well known a bird will grow a misshapen or offcolor feather every once and a while, so it's okay to fix that.
The only DQ for plucking in the Standard is plucked Vulture Hocks.

That and... every black duck out there would be DQed because it is impossible to keep away the white feathers forever.
But these are not abnormalities within the variety.
If the birds sprouted a red feather, for example, that would be an issue.

I would feel better about the whole thing if the tinted egg thing was a prank. However, we watched the hen lay the egg. I promise you. 100% without a shadow of doubt she laid the egg.

No I don't doubt that. A tinted egg is common in substandard Marans.
It is terrible that happened to you.
I just doubt the Ameraucana did that. Ameraucana people are obsessed with their egg color.
I'm not one to care about egg color.
I am quite happy with my d'Anvers where no one cares about egg color, no matter what it may be.
It does bother me that few judges actually understand their Standard. They are more familiar with the common breeds. The rectangular American breeds, the Leghorns, the Cochins. Birds with dropped wings and short backs and an upright posture are out of that wheelhouse.
But some day I'm going to be an APA judge and I'm going to judge them right!

 

[KF0002]

I'm going to say something controversial
Unless it's vulture hocks or a wing or main tail feather, plucking is just grooming, not faking.
If plucking equalled faking it would be impossible for barred Plymouth Rocks or white crested black Polish to compete because they have very complex colors and extra black feathers are common. That said, they are accepted in the standard they just don't look nice...
Now if someone is intentionally decieving, that is faking, of course.
But it is well known a bird will grow a misshapen or offcolor feather every once and a while, so it's okay to fix that.
The only DQ for plucking in the Standard is plucked Vulture Hocks.

That and... every black duck out there would be DQed because it is impossible to keep away the white feathers forever.
But these are not abnormalities within the variety.
If the birds sprouted a red feather, for example, that would be an issue.

No I don't doubt that. A tinted egg is common in substandard Marans.
It is terrible that happened to you.
I just doubt the Ameraucana did that. Ameraucana people are obsessed with their egg color.
I'm not one to care about egg color.
I am quite happy with my d'Anvers where no one cares about egg color, no matter what it may be.
It does bother me that few judges actually understand their Standard. They are more familiar with the common breeds. The rectangular American breeds, the Leghorns, the Cochins. Birds with dropped wings and short backs and an upright posture are out of that wheelhouse.
But some day I'm going to be an APA judge and I'm going to judge them right!

Good for you on striving to become a judge so you can ensure your breed of choice is judged fairly and accurately. I was in the same boat with showing Marans. They aren't a "meat and taters" American breed, and most judges don't know how to judge them accurately because they focus on the core American breeds like the Rocks, RIR, Leghorns, etc. International Class breeds are at the mercy of the judge, and you just have to hit the shows where you know your club is going to be attending and hope they have a special show for them. Or there is a dual show with two different judges, and one of them at least is halfway familiar with your breed's SOP.

As far as faking, I was referring to intentionally altering a bird and plucking a feather that you know stands between that bird placing at a show and being DQ'd. Like for example, two people enter a couple of Leghorns hypothetically, and one person has worked for years to perfect his line of Brown Leghorns and he has a sublime speciman with no white in his main sickle feathers in his tail. Then the other guy before bringing his Brown Leghorn rooster to the show, plucked out one streamer from his rooster's tail because half the feather was white because he knows more than an inch of white is a DQ. That is faking. Another example is plucking feathers from the leg of a bird to make it clean legged, when feathered shanks would be a DQ.

If someone tried to pluck the vulture hock feathers from a bird where vulture hocks in the breed are not in the SOP and are considered to be a DQ, the chicken would have naked thighs, and it would be obvious feathers have been plucked. Or the bird wouldn't place at all because of all of the missing feathers.

Ducks may be different, and I will have to give you that one because I haven't studied their standard. But plucking any feather in the plumage of a bird (like parasitic white feathers) you know will cause the bird to be DQ'd, is faking as far as what I have read.

Even though Cream Legbars are a breed that haven't yet been accepted by the APA, I took a pair to the Appalachian Classic one year. They were set up in an area where non-approved breeds/varieties were. White in the tail wasn't mentioned in their standard as being a DQ in their proposed standard that I can remember, and my rooster had a sickle feather (streamer, whatever you want to call it) in his tail with about 3 inches of white from the base. It was a dual show and the bird won RV/RB the first show, but was DQ'd the next because of the white. My hen won BB and BV. Mind you, my pair were the only Legbars there. lol But the club encouraged people to get Legbars out there to shows, and hopefully someday the APA will approve them.

 

[Amer]

Good for you on striving to become a judge so you can ensure your breed of choice is judged fairly and accurately. I was in the same boat with showing Marans. They aren't a "meat and taters" American breed, and most judges don't know how to judge them accurately because they focus on the core American breeds like the Rocks, RIR, Leghorns, etc. International Class breeds are at the mercy of the judge, and you just have to hit the shows where you know your club is going to be attending and hope they have a special show for them. Or there is a dual show with two different judges, and one of them at least is halfway familiar with your breed's SOP.

As far as faking, I was referring to intentionally altering a bird and plucking a feather that you know stands between that bird placing at a show and being DQ'd. Like for example, two people enter a couple of Leghorns hypothetically, and one person has worked for years to perfect his line of Brown Leghorns and he has a sublime speciman with no white in his main sickle feathers in his tail. Then the other guy before bringing his Brown Leghorn rooster to the show, plucked out one streamer from his rooster's tail because half the feather was white because he knows more than an inch of white is a DQ. That is faking. Another example is plucking feathers from the leg of a bird to make it clean legged, when feathered shanks would be a DQ.

If someone tried to pluck the vulture hock feathers from a bird where vulture hocks in the breed are not in the SOP and are considered to be a DQ, the chicken would have naked thighs, and it would be obvious feathers have been plucked. Or the bird wouldn't place at all because of all of the missing feathers.

Ducks may be different, and I will have to give you that one because I haven't studied their standard. But plucking any feather in the plumage of a bird (like parasitic white feathers) you know will cause the bird to be DQ'd, is faking as far as what I have read.

Even though Cream Legbars are a breed that haven't yet been accepted by the APA, I took a pair to the Appalachian Classic one year. They were set up in an area where non-approved breeds/varieties were. White in the tail wasn't mentioned in their standard as being a DQ in their proposed standard that I can remember, and my rooster had a sickle feather (streamer, whatever you want to call it) in his tail with about 3 inches of white from the base. It was a dual show and the bird won RV/RB the first show, but was DQ'd the next because of the white. My hen won BB and BV. Mind you, my pair were the only Legbars there. lol But the club encouraged people to get Legbars out there to shows, and hopefully someday the APA will approve them.

I think with Marans it will get better now because it is one of the most popular breeds.
It is the one that most consistently wins Continental because Continental representation sucks (though one show I went to had a TON of Spitzhaubens in different varieties but they weren't good nonaccepted obviously...)
I won't ever expect them to judge them based on egg color except in the egg shows (after all, it is a 150 year old organization, egg color didn't matter until the Araucana was added, and how can you prove a rooster's egg color ), but I do think type is very important.
I know some breeders who are of the opinion that size doesn't matter because they don't weigh the birds but I know I can judge size by comparison! I know the approximate size of one breed vs another. (My observation: a lot of OEGB are way too small.)
I don't want to be a Marans hater but I do feel like every Marans breeder must be concentrated in Wisconsin because they have a meet at Wisconsin International every single year, with a table and sooo many Marans in the show. I get sick of them after a while.
I know I'm just jealous because I could never get a d'Anvers meet here because they are uncommon in this state. It would just be me, the main breeder I'm up against, some more substandard birds, maybe somebody from out of state that decided to travel to Wisconsin for some reason.

 

[KF0002]

I think with Marans it will get better now because it is one of the most popular breeds.
It is the one that most consistently wins Continental because Continental representation sucks (though one show I went to had a TON of Spitzhaubens in different varieties but they weren't good nonaccepted obviously...)
I won't ever expect them to judge them based on egg color except in the egg shows (after all, it is a 150 year old organization, egg color didn't matter until the Araucana was added, and how can you prove a rooster's egg color ), but I do think type is very important.
I know some breeders who are of the opinion that size doesn't matter because they don't weigh the birds but I know I can judge size by comparison! I know the approximate size of one breed vs another. (My observation: a lot of OEGB are way too small.)
I don't want to be a Marans hater but I do feel like every Marans breeder must be concentrated in Wisconsin because they have a meet at Wisconsin International every single year, with a table and sooo many Marans in the show. I get sick of them after a while.
I know I'm just jealous because I could never get a d'Anvers meet here because they are uncommon in this state. It would just be me, the main breeder I'm up against, some more substandard birds, maybe somebody from out of state that decided to travel to Wisconsin for some reason.

It has been at least 10-11 years since I attended my last show, so it sounds like Marans have come up in the world. They weren’t as popular in show at the shows I went to and there were only like 4 people there showing birds.

I believe type and size is very important also, in layer and dual purpose breeds. Because in layers you want them to have a wide and deep enough pelvis to be a good representation of a layer breed. And in dual purpose breeds you want a bird of adequate size because the breast and thighs should be big enough on the carcass to make it worth while to eat them.

In breeds with specific traits, like certain egg colors, such as Marans, I feel like it is dishonest to knowingly show a bird that is not a good representation of the breed’s well known dark brown egg color. But as you mentioned, you can’t judge a rooster by egg color so only the breeder would know. I don’t plan on showing in the future, but I can see how it would be enjoyable if you had a more well-known breed that was judged accurately by their SOP.

I don’t breed Marans anymore, not because they didn’t show well but because they truly are mite magnets with all their plumage. I have never owned a breed before that I had so much trouble keeping mites off of them. I spent so much time dusting them, spraying them, and treating their perimeters that it took away from the pleasure of keeping them. I prefer tighter feathered breeds like Legbars, Leghorns, and Games which all seem to be very mite and bug resistant. It is pretty rare we find mites or bugs on any of those breeds just because their feathers are easier to keep dusted naturally by the birds.