The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[Leahs Mom]

Good...thank you! Do you possibly have any photos of your bsf catching buckets?

And...can't wait to see those breeding pen photos!

 

[armorfirelady]

On the deep litter in the run, I don't have experience using all leaves but I think ArmorFireLady uses them inside her hoop house.  I'm wondering if you started out with a thin layer.  But I think what you did - putting them in one area - will work great.  Before you know it, they'll be digging through those and spread them out themselves.  Then you can dump some more in and they'll do it all over again until you get it as deep as you want it.

It will give them something to do, save you the work of spreading, and help them get used to it all at once!  And the more that happens, but more broken up, aerated and decomposed they'll begin to be.  They will eventually be spreading things around and keeping the ground more healthy.

It you can possibly get hold of some wood chips or shavings that will also help keep a healthy balance in there.  Also - oak leaves take a long time to break down so if you have oak, it is good to mix them with some other types of material if possible.

Leaves, grass clippings, weeds, wood chips, pine needles, shavings from wood cutting........whatever I can find free I use. My girls don't mind walking on leaves. And it sounds so fall like as they crunch over them. I've used leaves since I have started. Some are whole some have been chopped up with the lawn mower.

Maybe they don't like the sound of the whole leaves crunching under their feet? Run them over with the lawn mower and see if they tolerate them better? My guess is they would eventually walk on them. I have a dozen bags of leaves, grass clippings & pine needles bagged and put away for me to use as litter all winter. I won't need any store bought shaving this year

As for the compost pile. Mine hAve access to it. They will spend hours in there. I have dumped apples with spots on them in there and they eat them completely. I think they like the worms in them I rarely dump moldy food in it but my girls ignore things they don't like. Once the snow comes they won't have access to it.

 

[Jewelwing]

CR - approximately what size is the run?

My birds have access to the compost all the time but it's not in their run. It's on the outside. We also have a small area that they can't access where I put things that are extremely molded and things I don't want them to have access to...which isn't much. I don't put citrus where in their compost area but if I did, they'd just avoid what they don't want anyway.

I just don't like the idea of having it in the run as we have a good amount of compost and since they don't eat everything in there, I wouldn't want it to be piling up in their run.

However...I know other folks that do make their chicken run the compost area too.

The run is 18' x 8', plus the 6' x 6' area under the coop that's attached to the run. Nine chickens.

I've noticed they don't like citrus, which surprised me. But mine also just leave the foods they don't like, so that's what would end up making the compost in the run (combining with the leaves). Then I wonder if that means I can't put things like potato skins and avocado peels in the compost if it's in the run. I wouldn't put the kitty litter in (it's made of corn, so it's biodegradable and I put it in our compost now), because that just seems gross.

On the deep litter in the run, I don't have experience using all leaves but I think ArmorFireLady uses them inside her hoop house. I'm wondering if you started out with a thin layer. But I think what you did - putting them in one area - will work great. Before you know it, they'll be digging through those and spread them out themselves. Then you can dump some more in and they'll do it all over again until you get it as deep as you want it.

It will give them something to do, save you the work of spreading, and help them get used to it all at once! And the more that happens, but more broken up, aerated and decomposed they'll begin to be. They will eventually be spreading things around and keeping the ground more healthy.

It you can possibly get hold of some wood chips or shavings that will also help keep a healthy balance in there. Also - oak leaves take a long time to break down so if you have oak, it is good to mix them with some other types of material if possible.

I can put some wood chips in there, but I have to buy them at Rural King, so that would add up fast. The leaves are mostly maple now since the oaks haven't been dropping much yet. We have mostly oak, maple, and walnut. It would be hard for me to use grass clippings because we just spray them all over the lawn when it gets mowed because it keeps the grass healthier to let the clippings lie. There aren't even many clumps, so it would be a royal pain to try to rake them up. Anyway, I don't think we'll be mowing until spring now.

I did bag up a few bags of leaves, so maybe with the wood chips that will last me all winter.

This is an ideal opportunity for raising BSF... I cant understand why more poultry people don't do it

How do you mean? Do you mean the compost in the run would be a good way to raise BSF? Or just the fact that I have compost?

 

[Jewelwing]

Quote:

Leaves, grass clippings, weeds, wood chips, pine needles, shavings from wood cutting........whatever I can find free I use. My girls don't mind walking on leaves. And it sounds so fall like as they crunch over them. I've used leaves since I have started. Some are whole some have been chopped up with the lawn mower.

Maybe they don't like the sound of the whole leaves crunching under their feet? Run them over with the lawn mower and see if they tolerate them better? My guess is they would eventually walk on them. I have a dozen bags of leaves, grass clippings & pine needles bagged and put away for me to use as litter all winter. I won't need any store bought shaving this year

As for the compost pile. Mine hAve access to it. They will spend hours in there. I have dumped apples with spots on them in there and they eat them completely. I think they like the worms in them

I rarely dump moldy food in it but my girls ignore things they don't like. Once the snow comes they won't have access to it.

I hadn't thought of that - there are shavings left when my husband splits the wood, so maybe I could gather some of that. We often use anything that's not super tiny as kindling, though. But I'll take a closer look with chickens in mind!

I think you're totally right that it's the sound they don't like. Which is weird because they don't seem to mind it when they're crunching on the leaves in the forest edge when they forage there. But I did have them kind of deep, and it totally freaked them out. They scattered when I walked on them, too. Just terrifying all around. I learned my lesson! I kept calling them chicken for not stepping on the leaves, but they didn't seem to care.

I always dump moldy food in the compost pile! I guess I figured the chickens wouldn't eat it if it tasted yucky, and it seems like moldy stuff would taste pretty bad. I don't know why putting the compost pile in the run would really be any different than letting chickens have access to it outside the run, except for the space it would take up. But if they like walking on it anyway, it wouldn't make the run seem any smaller to them - it would just have more of a hilly terrain! Then we could take it out in the spring to use on the garden beds.

I just wondered if other people did it, and if not, what the reasoning was.

 

[armorfirelady]

I don't know why putting the compost pile in the run would really be any different than letting chickens have access to it outside the run, except for the space it would take up. But if they like walking on it anyway, it wouldn't make the run seem any smaller to them - it would just have more of a hilly terrain! Then we could take it out in the spring to use on the garden beds.

I just wondered if other people did it, and if not, what the reasoning was.

My compost pile is seperate because its HUGE. I have lots & lots of trees that drop a ton of leaves and I can easily put a deep covering over the veggie garden and fill the compost pile as well.

I use the deep litter thats in the coop to put in my veggie garden during the spring. Sometimes my compost pile takes longer to break down. Well it did before I had chickens.

 

[RedRidge]

Quote: Just the fact that you have "food scraps"... you don't want compost... you want fermenting grains and food scraps.
I have weekly access to excess food thrown away by the local food pantry at a church.
Enough to feed a LOT of BSF.

BSF convert to a much healthier and more consistent diet than the scraps themselves... and provide several things in addition to animal protein that the scraps don't provide (like calcium for instance).

 

[LeslieDJoyce]

I read somewhere (probably right here) that if you chip wood with a wood chipper (or volunteer to take the chips from the road-side mower crew) then you need to let the wood age for a while before you use it in your chicken coop. I've attempted to do a bit of research on this to no avail. Can someone explain the process to me?

Also, from the roadside mower crew ... is there any concern about what might be in the mowing/mulching debris? Or does "proper" aging eliminate any concern about the origin of the debris? How about fall leaves? Are any of those undesirable for chickens? Do they need to be thoroughly dry and crumbled for bedding, or does the chicken do the work for you?

Yes, these questions seem silly to me in a lot of ways, but each time I bring this topic up -- we have a landscape maintenance business and haul home several pick-up loads of yard debris every single day -- I get shut down with a story about how the stuff that is brought home wouldn't be fit for the chickens. Of course the chickens have access to whatever falls on the ground inside their area, and climb the trees to get at more, and there are other trees on the property dropping stuff I think the chickens might enjoy scratching around in If someone would be so kind as to rake some up and haul it and dump some of it out in the run ... or maybe the drier stuff could be even be used for bedding in the coop. But I just get arguments and/or condescending/pitying looks or blank stares when I try to discuss it with the Powers That Be.

I'm trying super hard to convert my "team" to the idea of using naturally gathered bedding in the chicken coops. As long as it is healthy. Leaves are falling now, it has hardly been raining here so those leaves are just about dry. Simultaneously, members of my "team" habitually complain about the expense of shavings, so I'm trying to encourage them to get out the rakes and put their SKILLS to use. No ... I couldn't possibly do it all myself. But let's say I could come up with the magic words to inspire a team effort, would I be harming the birds to toss in "whatever" gets swept up into their coop/run/pasture areas?

Just for the sake of irony ... I've been talking about this for AGES, particularly the part about how much the chickens LOVE scratching through the evergreen droppings ... and recently one of the team thought the chicken area looked messy, so raked up a wide path of evergreen droppings and HAULED THEM AWAY to the monster of a compost pile the maintenance debris goes to!

I'm not sure I feel better after that rant ...

 

[delisha]

I have a question. I'm thinking that rr may chime in on this one but anyone that has experience, please!

When feeding fish meal as part of the protein, you have to keep the levels below a certain percentage or it is "reported" that the eggs can start to taste fishy. (I say "reported" as many of the people that feed fish meal are also feeding kelp and it seems that the kelp may be more of the culpret...but I totally digress from my question.)

So..here's my question:

When feeding fish meal to meat birds, is there any upper limit to the amount? Does it affect the flavor of the meat at all?

I rarely feed fish meal, unless I am getting low on other meats. I feed one whole chicken(8lbs) every other week to 50 meaties if I am processing them. I start with liver when they are chicks. I feed all chicks the same under 6 weeks. (Feed in front of them several times a day.) If I am keeping them for breeding I pull those out at 6 weeks and put them with my FR flock. I do not feed those. Those need to find there own. I have kept 3 pullets for next year and they are 4-6 weeks old and FR with broody hens that hatched them. Soon they will be on their own.They are round and healthy, but not fat at all. The broody's that hatched them, teach them to find bugs and not rely on the food dish.

Lala sorry about the hawk attack!!! It's Hawk-A-Palooza in my backyard these days!! Yesterday I heard them calling for awhile and then my girls froze the hawk was in a tree 20 feet away it then went and perched on top of a Cyprus at the top of my property calling and calling for a good 10 minutes. Today I've heard them on and off circling.... It's interesting ... When the hawks are close the squirrels are quiet!!! When they leave the squirrels are back to hopping branches!

I found a soft shelled egg under the roost today. I'm guessing its my uber skinny lavender orpingtons ... She refuses to gain weight no matter what I do. I noticed that her eggs have started to have a kind of ring of thicker shell near the end. Hmmmmm. My vet told me that at an avian conference she attended they said that any soft shelled egg laid is a sign of infection.... Makes me wonder. My hen is totally normal besides being skinny :-0 thoughts??

A skinny hen specially an Orpington with egg issues is not normal IMO. She has something going on.

This hawk thing is so frustrating. Mine are still in jail and whenever I open the gate (when I'm working outside) the mom does NOT want her kids to go out (even though they're 8 weeks old) and the others literally tear out across the open area they have to cross to get to the little woods. Then they only stayed out there about 5 min. before they all came back.

I haven't seen hawks HERE but likely only because I haven't been out at the right time. I do see them EVERYWHERE while driving...been observing like Sally suggested.

If I didn't have the kids w/the mom I think I'd just let the gate be open now. But I feel protective of the kids.

As soon as that gate goes open they all start eating grass! I've been uprooting the green pepper plants since they like the leaves on those and they strip them clean when I put them in jail w/the birds.

Write down times the Hawks come. It will be part of the daily routine. You will find they usually come around the same time twice a day. Let them out when you can is all you can do. It is temporary.

RR - please do look up what percentage you used for the meaties.

Anyone else that raises meat birds - does anyone add ANY KIND of meat protein for them besides fish meal? If so, what and what is your source?

I feed all meats. Hunting season is great for chickens. Rabbits and pheasant season is now and they have it now. Turkey, deer is next. I get all meats from relative that have been in the freezer too long too. I was just gifted 8 pheasants from last year out of freezer clean out. I get pork too from a few.

for those of you using fish meal, you might want to read this. im not saying feeding it is wrong - its probably better than GMO soy meal or oil.

http://www.ibiblio.org/london/SoilWiki/message-archives/JoeCummins/msg00628.html

i use bowel's rangebird pellets to raise my protein, a hog pellet is similar. i have also used calf manna. the best source i have found is non GMO wheat, but its hard to find. its protein can top 40% if properly grown.

The part at the bottom asked for references and where the information came from and no response yet. I would be interested in thee source of the information. I worry more about the mercury they use in flu shots. I had no idea it was in fish after the cooking.

On the protein issue - I don't feed soy. That eliminates items like calf manna and many other high protein feeds.

If I could afford animal protein I wouldn't even feed any legume. But...I do use the field peas for lack of a better source.

I'd prefer not to give fish meal either. I tried to find "meat meal" and it's about impossible to get anymore. That is what USED to be used in poultry feeds until they needed somewhere to use all the soy that was being marketed.

I do have one butcher shop in our area that sells "pet food" meats but it has a high percentage of chicken in it. Chicken, bone, chicken skin, beef liver in it mostly. And it was $1/lb which is a better price than the fish meal.

I wish I could find more beef/venison whatever besides the chicken, but I may start using it more. Due to the high percentage of bone in it I was concerned about giving it to the chicks so there's another thing.

I may approach them to see if they'd do something special for me with less bone and more liver, beef scraps, etc.


So, anyhow, what I'm looking for is a good source of ANIMAL protein rather than vegetable protein.

Get a small game license and get your own or find a hunter or two..call the DNR and ask for road kill...call relatives and friends and tell them not to throw out stuff when they clean the freezer out.

I got my first egg out of chicks that I have raised!!!!

Congrats!!!!

So far I've given my chickens kitchen scraps that I think they'll like, and put the rest on the compost pile (which is not very near the coop). But I wonder if it's OK just to have the whole compost pile in the chicken run?

I guess I would put things like banana peels (which they don't like - I tried) and flaky onion skins and grapefruit halves, etc. It seems like this might be OK, but I'm a little worried about having a giant pile of rotting food in the middle of their run. Honestly, I have no idea if that would happen or not because our regular compost pile never has anything in it very long - I think raccoons and opossums get into it and clean it out, so I don't know what a compost pile does if food actually stays in it!

I would not put meat in a compost pile in your coop run. I would put all vegetable matter and greens. Try a bale of old straw in the run. Add leaves and grass clippings etc. The meat will come.
I have a meat compost pile..it is away from the coop..about 500 feet away. I do not want to draw animals to my birds. The birds do go to the compost pile, but they are aware they take a risk and I want safety to be the coop.

Quote: x2...grain proteins are the wrong additional proteins for chickens. They are necessary for base proteins.

Quote:
It is also a change. Chickens do nott like change. They will be fine after a few days.

 

[lalaland]

been thinking about worms


Leah's Mom and I were trying to figure out how to deal with runs contaminated with worms, and I found this:http://purelypoultry.net/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=168
There are a couple of brands, mostly in the UK, and I am guessing it is really DE. Not soldon DE in the chicken run. Wouldn't it kill the little creepy crawlies that we want our chickens to be eating?

Worms come from grasshoppers, earthworms, wild birds, and infected chickens (or their droppings to be more precise). Some of the university ag depts say from "contaminated waterers", which I would guess means contaminated with worm eggs. If you worm your chickens, and live worms are expelled with droppings, then there could be worm eggs, which apparently last through freezing and last a long time, and then.....your chickens eat the live worms or eggs and get worms.

So if I worm my flock, then.....they will still have worms. I don't want to have to worm a couple of times a year. (or really ever).

Despite all my rearching, I couldn't find anything that discussed a chicken's ability to deal with worms. I can't figure out what causes a worm overload. Do worms just keep getting worse and multiplying? Or is there some kind of immune system thing that responds to worms?

So, is it a "weak" or immune comprimised chicken that has worm problems,
Or is it a chicken who has worms that gets weak?

 

[armorfirelady]

So if I worm my flock, then.....they will still have worms. I don't want to have to worm a couple of times a year. (or really ever).

Despite all my rearching, I couldn't find anything that discussed a chicken's ability to deal with worms. I can't figure out what causes a worm overload. Do worms just keep getting worse and multiplying? Or is there some kind of immune system thing that responds to worms?

So, is it a "weak" or immune comprimised chicken that has worm problems,
Or is it a chicken who has worms that gets weak?

I have never had a worm overload in my little flock. I don't want one either

But I am curious.......have you ever regularly given your flock natural dewormers like cayenne pepper, seeds from pumpkins , cukes or gourds?

I am just curious if you did and still got the worms. I try to give my gang one of those items at least monthly. More as a preventive of a worm overload.

My thinking is like the wood ash......if I would of kept it available to them throughout the summer maybe I could of prevented the mite infestation?

Just my 2 cents and thoughts though