The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[HeritageGoose13]

Nuts are a choking risk for birds, since they try and swallow them whole. I think the only livestock that can eat nuts is swine, but I may be wrong.

 

[islafarm]

@JulesChicks,

a couple of things to add about your land:

The guys who are digging out the area for the septic system will get below the topsoil in their digging - don't let them pile all that subsoil on your garden area, it won't be good to grow in. Instead have them skim the topsoil off first (top 12 inches max) and save it separately - then they can move the subsoil anywhere you want just have them put the topsoil in a place you'll be planting. The topsoil will have all the good microbes, bacteria etc., - the subsoil not so much. This means that you shouldn't have them dump subsoil on any area you plan growing in - unless they remove the topsoil from that area first, dump the subsoil, then put the topsoil on top again. Don't know what your soil is like, but subsoil is generally very poor for growing anything in.

Depending on the slope and direction your land faces, it is probably a good idea to put in swales or begin a simple terracing. Swales are 'soft' ditches (wide and shallow) that follow the contour of your land. They are great for regulating and slowing the water down, allowing for increased penetration into the soil; helping enormously with erosion issues and begin to gently terrace the land thus making it easier to garden / move around in. It's an old, old idea one that has been taken up by permaculture - there are many permaculture projects near Puget Sound, maybe you could get a group interested in helping you.

Terracing could be done fairly simply by planting on the contours of your land, plant fruit trees or shrubs (blueberries?) on the contour lines and over time their roots will stabilize the soil, prunings can be laid down along the contours - and over time will build up the level of the land. There are quicker ways to do it (with faster growing plants used generally for erosion control), but this will give you a yield too. I'm not super familiar with appropriate plants for this in your area, but would suggest checking out this website:

http://www.raintreenursery.com/Pacific_Northwest.html

As for the brambles, maybe rent goats to clear them first, pull up as many roots as possible (I don't like tilling at all), get used to the idea of clearing new shoots for the next year or so - but if you can bag them and let them compost over the winter they'll help your garden in the end.

it's a lot of fun beginning with a new piece of land - endless possibilities

@oldhenlikesdogs,
your beds look great! And what a nice clear explanation, inspiring!

 

[oldhenlikesdogs]

Thank you islafarm, you guys are all so smart. Don't know too many people who like to do things differently. Enjoying this forum.

 

[Leahs Mom]

On the nuts, the guy on the video we watched plants hazelnuts for his poultry in his rotation paddocks. What I didn't get was how they can eat them but it seemed he was saying that they use the fallen nuts.

I guess I need to go to his website and see how they are using them.

But...I'm thinking I'd harvest a lot of them for me before the squirrels get them.... may be I'd just process them and give some back to the birds

Guess I need to do a little more research.

 

[islafarm]

I also purchased the book: "Secret Garden of Survival" which is quite fascinating. http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Garden...754&sr=1-1&keywords=secret+garden+of+survival It is the "permaculture/food forest" idea which I love... planting perennial food crops that you don't have to replant every year as the mainstay, then the annuals go around them. Now THAT'S the lazy way to garden!!!

That's one of the reasons I'm looking for a nut producer that I can plant as one of the main ones. I'm wanting to learn more about the hazel nuts for that as they sound like more of a shrub height which would be more manageable.

Someone asked if the chickens could harvest the hazelnuts themselves. I don't know the answer to that. I was thinking that if they drop and then soften over the winter like for sprouting, then maybe they'd eat them in the spring when they're soft?

Seems like nuts in any form would be a good perennial as they'd provide "non-legume" protein source if you don't have an animal source handy.


Does anyone have any experience with the perennial food plant model? "permaculture/food forest"? I'd love to see photos and ideas on that too!

Interesting books you have there. Like the contents of the first one especially Thanks for sharing!

Googled hazelnuts as poultry fodder and didn't find much, I would be concerned at the high fat in hazelnuts, also a possible choking hazard - as HeritageGoose mentioned. This is an interesting page, from New Zealand, perhaps not applicable in your zone, but could get you thinking of various possibilities:

Corylus species – Hazel

There are eleven economic species!
Filberts or Hazelnuts contain on the average about 13% protein and over 60% fat. The trees are suited to temperate climates and will form dense thickets as a secondary ground layer beneath the open canopies of larger trees.
Most soils are satisfactory, including poorer ones.
‘Cobnuts’, ‘Filberts’ and ‘Barcelona’ are simply highly developed forms of the ordinary Hazel, Corylus avellana. Only superior strains should be planted. The Hazelnut is somewhat slow growing. Reasonably good ‘Barcelona’ trees in Spain yield about 23kg of nuts in a season.
The nuts are relished by livestock and when ground up form a good feeding meal.
from: http://www.treecrops.org.nz/crops/fodder-and-forage/forage/
We have a permaculture farm which definitely fits in the agro-forestry bracket. Although our fruit trees are now mature and shade out a lot of the other crops we interplanted with in the past. It's a brilliantly simple and natural concept, and therefore quite easy. The main thing is looking after your soil. The banana circle is a good example of food forestry in permaculture. Obviously in temperate zones you wouldn't use bananas. It's like companion planting on a grander scale. Decide on your 'climax' tree - what is your end goal in terms of fruit production? Plant this tree in a "guild" with helpful plants - ideally you will want a community of plants to include:
- something to provide initial shade for your young tree
- something to fix nitrogen in the soil (could be beans or a cover crop)
- a cover crop to protect the soil
- something aromatic to deter pest insects
- flowers to attract beneficial insects
- something to provide biomass - a 'chop and drop' plant
you might use the same plant for several of these functions - this is called stacking in permaculture and is a highly valued concept. Especially useful if you can find suitable guild plants which are also useful to you or your livestock - e.g. basil or peppermint can be used to deter insects, and also for tea or pizza topping Comfrey could be your biomass plant - where you allow it to grow up then cut it back and use the leaves as mulch (comfrey is great in compost and also can be used in salves). Marigold or calendula could be your flowering plant - and find a use in your nest boxes too. Lavender could be your insect deterrent and attractant! Nasturtium or clover can attract insects and feed your soil if used as a cover crop. Or plant beans to fix nitrogen and to harvest for supper.
All at the same time these plants are providing a wonderful micro-climate and environment for your darling perennial. The more you can do for the topsoil in terms of protection from excessive sun and rain, maintaining humidity levels, improving the environment for (beneficial) bugs, the more you will strengthen and improve the really important life: the microbes, bacterias, yeasts, nematodes and fungal life which really feed you plants.

 

[lazy gardener]

Ok, I'm sold, I need easy. Can you point me in the right direction for this method you use? We are improving the land of a property we bought (and soon renovating the house) - we've been clearing and adding chickens so far, haven't had the time or energy for a garden. We're hoping to be in around Christmas at this point. So, if there is something we can do this fall to get ready for spring planting that won't send me over the edge, please share. I have done very little gardening but we want to learn and have one. Thanks!
Oh, and my neighbor here at our rental is going to give me some of her swiss chard which over winters. She's been kind to share it with us for eating and I love making soup with it (with sweet potatoes and sausage-yum!)

Check out this film and concept.

It would be a natural to start this fall to prepare for your spring garden. In terms of using mulch, the key is to put it on deep: ideally, hay or straw should be 6" deep, that way, it smothers any seeds that do sprout. You just need to pull the mulch back to expose the soil for planting seeds or tucking n your plants. Then you just pull the mulch back into place after the seeds sprout.

Count me in on those potential gardening classes, please? I live out west in the desert so gardening here is quite the challenge. I would love to read about your process and I don't have a lot of time to spend on gardening nor is my back strong enough to do a lot of gardening so I'm open to learning easy ways to do it.

Again, the above mentioned film would be perfect for your needs. This guy started this practice to deal with dry climate and lack of water.

Do the grass clippings not sprout into grass? One year my neighbour did us a 'favour' and mowed our lawn....and blew all the grass into my garden. Within a couple weeks I was overrun with grass. Or does the mulch prevent that?

I'm in Nova Scotia so our summers are very short and we like to get out and enjoy them, not be tied to weeding and watering etc. But, oh how I miss harvesting and eating the fresh veggies. I'm really excited to try this

Deep mulch is the ticket. I'm in zone 4, and am finding that my tomato plants grow much larger when planted in tires than they do when planted just in the soil.

I am considering goats- but we would need to improve fencing first and I don't think we should get larger animals without being here full time. But it's a possibility for sure- well once we get rid of the poisonous stuff!

Goats munch down poison ivy w/o problems. Not sure about the poison hemlock, though. You'd have to research that one.

@JulesChicks,

a couple of things to add about your land:

The guys who are digging out the area for the septic system will get below the topsoil in their digging - don't let them pile all that subsoil on your garden area, it won't be good to grow in. Instead have them skim the topsoil off first (top 12 inches max) and save it separately - then they can move the subsoil anywhere you want just have them put the topsoil in a place you'll be planting. The topsoil will have all the good microbes, bacteria etc., - the subsoil not so much. This means that you shouldn't have them dump subsoil on any area you plan growing in - unless they remove the topsoil from that area first, dump the subsoil, then put the topsoil on top again. Don't know what your soil is like, but subsoil is generally very poor for growing anything in.

Depending on the slope and direction your land faces, it is probably a good idea to put in swales or begin a simple terracing. Swales are 'soft' ditches (wide and shallow) that follow the contour of your land. They are great for regulating and slowing the water down, allowing for increased penetration into the soil; helping enormously with erosion issues and begin to gently terrace the land thus making it easier to garden / move around in. It's an old, old idea one that has been taken up by permaculture - there are many permaculture projects near Puget Sound, maybe you could get a group interested in helping you.

Terracing could be done fairly simply by planting on the contours of your land, plant fruit trees or shrubs (blueberries?) on the contour lines and over time their roots will stabilize the soil, prunings can be laid down along the contours - and over time will build up the level of the land. There are quicker ways to do it (with faster growing plants used generally for erosion control), but this will give you a yield too. I'm not super familiar with appropriate plants for this in your area, but would suggest checking out this website:

http://www.raintreenursery.com/Pacific_Northwest.html

As for the brambles, maybe rent goats to clear them first, pull up as many roots as possible (I don't like tilling at all), get used to the idea of clearing new shoots for the next year or so - but if you can bag them and let them compost over the winter they'll help your garden in the end.

it's a lot of fun beginning with a new piece of land - endless possibilities

@oldhenlikesdogs,
your beds look great! And what a nice clear explanation, inspiring!

An other concept to consider is "hugelkulture". I'm working on a spot with that method. My plan is to build the terrace in 4' or 8' long sections, cover with a few wheelbarrows full of top soil, plant, then start the next one. Over all, I have about a 40' strip to be done. If at all possible, a gentle south facing slope provides the best micro climate for growing gardens in the north.

Islafarm: Truer words never spoken regarding stripping top soil and laying bare the subsoil. I had some land cleared last fall, and all of my beautiful black humus was buried deep, and the excavator left behind a waste land of heavy clay subsoil and boulders. So much work for me to do to reclaim the land. I'm working on it with HK, BTE, and chicken power.

 

[islafarm]

Thank you islafarm, you guys are all so smart. Don't know too many people who like to do things differently. Enjoying this forum.

me too! So much fun to share and grow together. This forum is great for that

On the nuts, the guy on the video we watched plants hazelnuts for his poultry in his rotation paddocks. What I didn't get was how they can eat them but it seemed he was saying that they use the fallen nuts.

I guess I need to go to his website and see how they are using them.

But...I'm thinking I'd harvest a lot of them for me before the squirrels get them.... may be I'd just process them and give some back to the birds

Guess I need to do a little more research.

is that the guy from the Regenerative Farming post from a few days ago? I read the transcript of the interview and I wasn't clear either. Nor was I clear on how he was doing his rotation, or how he was growing corn and sunflowers under hazelnuts, or when he was letting his poultry (all 3,000 of them - that's just over 7 square feet per bird) into his corn fields - at which stage would the birds not destroy his corn, and what does he do in winter? Hopefully it will make more sense on his website.

But what I did find inspiring about that article / interview, was the vision of transforming agriculture, and the idea that poultry in harmony with their feed crops - or an integrated approach to farming - is absolutely sensible and do-able.

 

[Leahs Mom]

The 3000 birds were over a period of a season... I think he was talking about having several different groups of meat birds in the season.

 

[Leahs Mom]

The soil in the back to eden film is like what I get in my chicken runs under the wood chips. I get the wood chips from tree service. If you call some in your area, they will often bring you some and dump them on your property when they are working in your area as they prefer not to take them back to their location if they don't have to. Been using them in the runs and on the garden too, but I let them sit in the piles for awhile to "cure" before putting them down.

I use the worms as a guide - when the piles are full of worms I know they're safe to put in the runs or garden. I suppose I could put them right on the garden in the fall and setting over the winter would do the curing job.

 

[islafarm]

@lazy gardener

hugelkulture! Brilliant, forgot that one. Yes, that would work great for a slope. Work along the contour and do it in stages like you're doing. Oh yeah, that's probably the easiest way to go, especially if you put a swale on the upper side and add the topsoil from the swale to the hugelkulture.

I hear you on the subsoil - quickest way to add years of work to your gardening efforts

sounds like you're doing the work though - lazy gardener?? Is BTE basically heavy mulching?