The Natural Chicken Keeping thread - OTs welcome!

[RedRidge]

Learn from my mistakes... if you really have a predation problem and need something beyond just a detterent...

Some misconceptions and info about maremma...

IF they are properly bred and properly bonded they require NO training... they may require guidance between 6 and 12 months, but their instinct to guard their livestock is bred in. Being properly bred is genetic... being properly bonded begins before their eyes are open and is up to their breeder to do. The only thing I "train" my puppies to do is to sit for their food and not drag me on a leash (not heal, just not drag).
Beyond that, they should require very little.

Attention and time.... most people give their dogs, especially as cute, fuzzy pups, too much time and attention. The bond needs to be with the livestock and not the humans. I tell my puppy people to limit their time with them each day to 10 minutes. I spend far more time feeding and pottying my "indoor pet and competition dogs" than I do my maremma. Once they are a year old they get fed once a day, as in... a bowl put down, a pat on the head, and walk away.

Pets... these are NOT pets. If you want a dog who will be a pet and a deterrent, get another dog. There are plenty of dogs who can easily be a deterent to both human and animal predation. More importantly.... that is all a lot of folks really need... a deterrent, not an lgd. These are working dogs who, when properly bred, are very intuitive and would not like being separated from their livestock for even 5 minutes. They live with the stock 24/7, never come in the house.

Expense... it's funny how many people think they can't afford an lgd.... then, after they have lost hundreds, if not thousands, in livestock in just one night they get all in a hurry and want one today. I mention this because years ago, in one night, I lost 8 sheep and a dozen chickens.... on a rainy night because a neighbor didn't want to walk his dogs in the rain so he let them run. Each of those ewes was irreplaceable, the vet bill was enormous trying to save those who were still alive. And trust me, spending several hours picking up body parts is heart wrenching... no one should have to go through it. How much is your livestock worth to you if it was all taken away tomorrow? Don't wait like I did.

Side note... my ammo expenses have gone down to nothing but practice ammo since acquiring my first maremma... and... I am a darn good shot, so prior to that I didn't waste ammo. But with the price of ammo these days I'd rather not loose sleep and take a chance. I sleep sound all night without ever having to worry, watch, or take aim.

 

[RedRidge]

I haven't really thought "electric fencing" yet. I was just thinking of putting some outdoor electrical outlets near the coop.

Love my poultry netting... have oodles of these...
$140 for 164'
http://www.kencove.com/fence/Electric+Net+Fencing_detail_NSPCG.php

 

[PrimroseMom1]

I may take you up on that this summer  

I hate the heat. I much prefer the cold. I'd take -30 before 100F any day. Can't do it. I get extremely testy in hot weather. I lash out at everyone.

I worry much more about my flock in heat.

X2. I actually hate the super heat here. It gets so hot and humid that if you step outside, even in the shade, you are seriously sweating with 3 feet of the door. Like walking into a fernace, can't even take a deep breath, for months. I agree about the flock and rabbit concerns. They are all in shade, but shade is not nearly enough. Anyway, can save all that for some months from now.

 

[aoxa]

Learn from my mistakes... if you really have a predation problem and need something beyond just a detterent...

Some misconceptions and info about maremma...

IF they are properly bred and properly bonded they require NO training... they may require guidance between 6 and 12 months, but their instinct to guard their livestock is bred in. Being properly bred is genetic... being properly bonded begins before their eyes are open and is up to their breeder to do. The only thing I "train" my puppies to do is to sit for their food and not drag me on a leash (not heal, just not drag).
Beyond that, they should require very little.

Attention and time.... most people give their dogs, especially as cute, fuzzy pups, too much time and attention. The bond needs to be with the livestock and not the humans. I tell my puppy people to limit their time with them each day to 10 minutes. I spend far more time feeding and pottying my "indoor pet and competition dogs" than I do my maremma. Once they are a year old they get fed once a day, as in... a bowl put down, a pat on the head, and walk away.

Pets... these are NOT pets. If you want a dog who will be a pet and a deterrent, get another dog. There are plenty of dogs who can easily be a deterent to both human and animal predation. More importantly.... that is all a lot of folks really need... a deterrent, not an lgd. These are working dogs who, when properly bred, are very intuitive and would not like being separated from their livestock for even 5 minutes. They live with the stock 24/7, never come in the house.

Expense... it's funny how many people think they can't afford an lgd.... then, after they have lost hundreds, if not thousands, in livestock in just one night they get all in a hurry and want one today. I mention this because years ago, in one night, I lost 8 sheep and a dozen chickens.... on a rainy night because a neighbor didn't want to walk his dogs in the rain so he let them run. Each of those ewes was irreplaceable, the vet bill was enormous trying to save those who were still alive. And trust me, spending several hours picking up body parts is heart wrenching... no one should have to go through it. How much is your livestock worth to you if it was all taken away tomorrow? Don't wait like I did.

Side note... my ammo expenses have gone down to nothing but practice ammo since acquiring my first maremma... and... I am a darn good shot, so prior to that I didn't waste ammo. But with the price of ammo these days I'd rather not loose sleep and take a chance. I sleep sound all night without ever having to worry, watch, or take aim.

Have you ever had one JUST with chickens?

How did it bond with chickens?

Everything I have read states they don't bond well to fowl. I know in my case it was true. She was bonded to sheep before we bought her. She did not bond at all with the chickens. Ever.

I'd hate to see people think they are easy, because in my experience they are not. They can't be trusted 100% until they are older. They need a large area to patrol. They need a very sturdy fence.

Oh and Clementine struggled with finding jobs to do. We have practically no predators - we thought we would. We bought her a few days prior to moving to our rural area.

She only killed one chicken. I think that's pretty impressive. She was playing, not preying upon her. Broke the chicken's neck. No blood at all.

----
Now with Henry, it was so easy... He is just as protective as Clementine was, but does not wander at all. Had a few incidents of him picking up birds and bringing them to us, but he never killed a single one.

He doesn't do that now.
-----
I think that owning an LGD is a very good idea for people with a lot of land. If you are close to any busy roads without proper fencing and enough land to patrol - it is not always a good fit.

a donkey or llama would work better for a small plot of land.

 

[CourtsCacklers]

I really love reading all about LGDs--- We have an Old English Sheepdog-- I grew up on a farm and always wanted one-- got one before we ever had kids or a "flock" for him... He is a very protective creature of our family. He is brand new with the chickens as we just got them this past spring. He never had to be trained with them. He is 7 but still very active (running, jumping, playing) but has never chased the chickies. I can completely trust him with them for hours-- no supervision. I don't know how aggressive or not he would be towards predators because we haven't really crossed that bridge but the next dog for us will definitely be an OES. I haven't ever had a reason to doubt him or his loyalties... I do think people have to be realistic about their "companions" though....thanks to everyone for the beautiful pictures and useful information!!!!

 

[armorfirelady]

Mrs Rebecca I have 8 hens and love, love the electric netting. I bought 2 and it gives me lots of room to move the girls on my 1 acre lot. It has on a long white so it runs into my garage to the charger that is best to an outlet. No need for outside outlets. My plan is a solar powered charger with my tax refund for it. My pop door is solar powered and has worked all winter even with the solar panel covered with feet of snow, it only needs 2 hours of light to recharge and run the door. That's a good thing for where I live. We haven't seen the sun in weeks. Just lots and lots of snow

As for a coop. I made a hoop coop out of cattle panels and covered it with a tarp. It's surrounded by the electric netting all year except November thru April. To much snow to use the fence. They are fine in it all winter. I only put more tarps around the inside when we just had temps below zero and windchills up to -30. We also had a blizzard for 2 days. But they had no heat and survived just fine. If your interested there is a link to my coop under my avatar.

Girls were so happy today. I finally took down all the extra tarps, insulation boards and opened up the doors. Out they ran outside. Def to many tarps for today's temps of 34. I had condensation on the plastic on the north end. And one of them started picking at the insulation board as soon as it was noticeable. Brats !!! Window in door is open all the way, plastic on outside rolled back & tarps down and stuffed in a nesting box since they don't use it.

Seems my resident bunny appreciated the hay down outside during the blizzard. He left signs of being there. He was even in the dog crate. Don't know if he helped himself to food in there or not lol

They were so excited to be outside they didn't even care if they were walking in the snow
I have to say for being locked in the coop for 4 days there was no picking on each other that I can see. Maybe that was because of the rubber bowl full of birdseed made life bearable

Eta I just realized the snow bank on the right is taller than the hens......

 

[RedRidge]

Have you ever had one JUST with chickens?

**YES

How did it bond with chickens?

**They HAVE to be born and raised and bonded to chickens from the time their eyes open.

Everything I have read states they don't bond well to fowl. I know in my case it was true. She was bonded to sheep before we bought her. She did not bond at all with the chickens. Ever.

**See above... she was bonded with sheep, not chickens. All living things are not the same. This is the reason I discourage people from spending much time with them as puppies. It is very hard to do, especially if you have kids... kids love puppies. But too many times lgd's end up in rescue because they do not bond with the livestock. Different breeds work differently. I wouldn't own a GP for instance. No offense to anyone who has one, but... they are not for me. They do not bond with their stock the way the maremma do. They are a perimeter dog, bonding to their "area" more than their livestock. Which is the reason gp's have a reputation for being wanderers... with sturdy fencing they have no well defined area. My maremma stay in electro netting and/or field fencing. The electro netting is only 40" tall and I have NEVER had one go over or under... even with a ***** in heat.

I'd hate to see people think they are easy, because in my experience they are not. They can't be trusted 100% until they are older. They need a large area to patrol. They need a very sturdy fence.

**All misconceptions due to improperly started pups. Notice my to IFs in the post above... IF they are bred right and IF they are started right. It would be very unusual for a dog bonded with sheep to switch to poultry easily. Can it be done? yes, but I said easily. My pups are introduced to electroneting at 4 weeks of age... never have a fence problem. The first 8-16 weeks are SO critical... and I will not even let mine go to their new homes until they are at least 10 weeks, and in some cases 16. All foundation is laid then.

**It is the responsibility of the breeder to lay this foundation correctly AND to provide support with how to procede through the teenage months. Without that guidance (which seems easy after the fact but not so much at the time), things can go down hill quickly. But... they shouldn't. Half of the expense of purchasing an lgd is the breeders time and help.


-----
I think that owning an LGD is a very good idea for people with a lot of land. If you are close to any busy roads without proper fencing and enough land to patrol - it is not always a good fit.

a donkey or llama would work better for a small plot of land.

**I have plenty of acreage but mine rotate on 1/4 acre paddocks... they do not roam or patrol... patrolling is for pyrs, not maremma.
**I have had donkeys & llamas in the past. Great for footed predators, but awful for flying ones. They do not protect at all against hawks, turkey vultures, etc.
Not to mention they are hard on your forage and... a llama can just a 6' tall gate flat footed - talk about hard to keep in!

** these are just some to things to make you realize that one bad experience shouldn't create generalizations... but it does. It's a shame, and I blame it all on the breeder. Good breeders would never drop a ball and will be with you for the life of the dog.
I am a HUGE proponent of rescues (and help with rescues in one breed), but... again... if you want a working dog you have to have a good, reputable breeder. And I don't say that lightly, because I believe there are way too many dogs who need homes. I had the #1 obedience dog in a specific breed one year (he was also a breed champion and had titles in tracking & agility)... I didn't breed him because there are too many dogs who need homes.
But... a working dog who you depend on 24/7 for your livelihood is a different investment... kinda like investing in a heat lamp when you raise chicks.

I'll get off my soapbox now...

just wanted folks to know there are options for decent, dependable predation control... and I like to help folks prevent loosing livestock.

This rooster was penned because he's mean... his name is Buzz and why I still have him I have no idea. But I won't permit him with the pups like all the other chickens. This little girl wanted to know why he was in jail.

 

[CourtsCacklers]

also-- we have a lot of hawks in our area-- in fact a couple weeks back one tried to get my neighbor's chicken when it was out free-ranging... To date-- I haven't had any preying on my chickens. What are your thoughts? Are the LGD's usually successful at detering a hawk (or other flying predators) from going after the free-ranging chickens? Will having an active LGD's presence usually deter them or does the LGD actually go after the flying predator or is the LGD not a real help with these predators at all? If we have coons/oppossums or other critters we have always been alerted by our OES or he has caught them and brought them to the door (Nice, right....atleast there is never any blood)-- but I wasn't sure of the flying predators!

 

[RedRidge]

also-- we have a lot of hawks in our area-- in fact a couple weeks back one tried to get my neighbor's chicken when it was out free-ranging... To date-- I haven't had any preying on my chickens. What are your thoughts? Are the LGD's usually successful at detering a hawk (or other flying predators) from going after the free-ranging chickens? Will having an active LGD's presence usually deter them or does the LGD actually go after the flying predator or is the LGD not a real help with these predators at all? If we have coons/oppossums or other critters we have always been alerted by our OES or he has caught them and brought them to the door (Nice, right....atleast there is never any blood)-- but I wasn't sure of the flying predators!

They are awesome with hawks and turkey vultures, but obviously only catch them if they are stupid enough to land - otherwise they bark like crazy and usually the hawks aren't that stupid. But now, a flock of turkey vultures? they can be gutsy... but I always run my maremma in pairs and I haven't had anything yet that will challenge a pair of them. We rarely have anything killed here because it just won't get that close.

 

[armorfirelady]

I don't have a lgd but I do know the hawks in my area tend to stay way from my hens when the dogs are out. I only witnessed one hawk attack. Thankfully he landed in the electric netting and took off. I don't know if it shocked him but he stayed away for a few days regardless. I have no rooster but my girls always have an eye to the sky for hawks. They make a weird noise to alert the others. And off they go to safety. My girls range all day. I have to hope my girls are smart enough to be aware and take cover when the hawk is close. The electric netting keeps the dogs and foxes out. My chickens need to be chickens and I try hard to let them be themselves.