The Olive-Egger thread!

[nicalandia]

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A Challenge I see.... let me try to explain this as careful as possible as to make anybody understand what I am trying to say.. yes you are correct there are many brown egg shell genes, some recessive, some dominant, BUT there are also inhibitors of the brown egg shell gene, and Punnetts Chilean stock had them and when he made the first "Olive" egger Cross by crossing a Heterozygous blue egger(original chilean stock single comb mongrel) with a Dark egger(Welsummer) he actually hatched a "Tinted" egg layer(along with brown, green and Olive egger) he actually makes reference to this ihibitors, Had this "tinted eggers" now remember that these inhibitors were in Heterozygous state(as welsummers dont have them) on the "tinted" egger he hatched, had the brown egg shell inhibitor in homozygous state, their Tinted eggs shoul have appeared White/Almost White here pics of his work and source.
Dr. Reginald Punnett's the Feathered world 1931
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf


some screen shots from it



"Breeding Out" blue was not Punnetts intention, but a result of basic Mendelian genetic laws, Read "Law of Independent Assortment" now, so its basic genetics, I dont need "experience" to understand it, I have yet to see an Actual effort to create the "Olive Egger" breed instead of the "Olive Egger" cross breeds we see 100% of the time, I have yet to see someone that actually have an O/O Welsummer/BCM(homozygous for all of the brown egg shell and homozygous for the blue egg shell gene and lacking any inhibitors of brown egg shells ) all I see are F1s, F2s and BC1(backcross to parent welsummer, or back cross to EE/Ameraucana/Araucana parent) so if you cross F1s with F1s(we cant tell the genome of roosters as they dont lay eggs) you can expect, brow, gree, Olive, Tinted and as weird as it may sound even a White/creamy eggs

 

[nicalandia]

Further Read from the good Doctor

Source: http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf

 

[Sterkfarm]

...

Quote:
A Challenge I see.... let me try to explain this as careful *** possible as to make anybody understand what I am trying to say.. yes you are correct there are many brown egg shell genes, some recessive, some dominant, BUT there are also inhibitors of the brown egg shell gene, and Punnetts Chilean stock had them and when he made the first "Olive" egger Cross by crossing a Heterozygous blue egger(original chilean stock single comb mongrel) with a Dark egger(Welsummer) he actually hatched a "Tinted" egg layer(along with brown, green and Olive egger) he actually makes reference to this ihibitors, now remember that these inhibitors were in Heterozygous state(as welsummers dont have them) on the "tinted" egger he hatched here pics of his work and source.
Dr. Reginald Punnett's the Feathered world 1931
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf


some screen shots from it



I appreciate your very comprehensive and fantastic explanation. Thank you! Now, a few more questions: I first must say there are people I know of who are working on stabilizing olive laying birds. so they are out there! And for sake of clarity, are you separating olive from green, or are we both assuming that green in any form is similar enough to lump in with olive in that it contains both blue and green genes... If the original birds Punnett tested were in fact the landrace chilean birds and of course nowadays most of us are using genetically different breeds, for instance Ameraucana; can we apply the same theory to those? meaning, is anyone crossing Ameraucana/BCM crosses as F1, and breeding the subsequent F2/3 without backcross and getting white eggs among other colours? I'm talking more in terms of practical experience vs. theory. If so, I'd be fascinated by that. My brain just can't wrap around breeding olive green to olive green and ending up with true white eggs. I wonder if that effect would be more seen in crossing araucana (being a little closer to the mapuche landrace vs Ameraucana)? Also, how do we account for stabilized green layers like the Isbar who are obviously not backcrossed? Would they not each have a brown and green genetic component initially and then it stayed consistent and stabilized through repeated breeding and subsequent crossing within each generation without backcross?

 

[nicalandia]

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Olive have many shades, I would say dark green to Olive is what I am talking about
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Thats a good question, I would say for the Araucana(from Chile too) I would say Yes, and MAYBE for Ameraucana, because these breed clearly say Blue eggs on the SOP so any light shade of green would have been breed out by this time, either by completely removing any traces of brown shades(check link on the second post I made where way back then in 1914 it was reported that in Chile there were many landrace breeds laying ALL kinds of shades) or by homozygosity of the brown egg shell inhibitor/inhibitors, now this inhibitors are not only found on the mongrels(landrace) punnett had, they are also found on other breeds, but I agree that EE may not be one of them as it appears that the EEs may have been at home way back then in chile, here is the link where this is referred(mongrels laying all shades of blues and greens)

Source: http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf

I agree that its a long shot and most likely very few will ever hatch a nearly white egg layer from F1x F1 or F2 x F2 as the genes(homozygous for the brown egg shell inhibitors) need it for would need to be pressent and Also the Brown egg shell genes would have to been "Bred out" of the egg layer(by mendelian laws, not on purpose) all in the same bird, but is still a possibility and therfore need it on the Chart, at least for reference...

 

[seventreesfarm]

Is there a chart anywhere that just delineates F and BC generations?
I see some people call crosses F2 or F3 when it's the offspring of an F1 and a parent breed (i.e. Oliver x Marans), but wouldn't this be a back cross?
Also, if I'm crossing two F2s, are the offspring F3s because it's the third generation of crosses?

I'd love a chart or calculator where I could just plug in my breeding stock and get the correct generational labels...

 

[nicalandia]

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yes that would make them BC1 but people are not aware of that most of the time
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That would be a good idea but unfortunately egg color is more complex than feather color

 

[Penny Hen]

Is there a chart anywhere that just delineates F and BC generations?
I see some people call crosses F2 or F3 when it's the offspring of an F1 and a parent breed (i.e. Oliver x Marans), but wouldn't this be a back cross?
Also, if I'm crossing two F2s, are the offspring F3s because it's the third generation of crosses?

I'd love a chart or calculator where I could just plug in my breeding stock and get the correct generational labels...

This was provided by another BYCer. I cannot attest to the accuracy of it yet.

 

[JFreeman]

Quote: I'm enjoying this topic, but I'm way new. What is BC supposed to represent? And when referring to an OE, what is F? I understand what it represents, but not what it means or stands for.

 

[Henk69]

I must be missing something (in reference to that olive egg chart)....where Henk states on the kippenjungle calculator that the blue gene is dominant over white and in regard to brown "There certainly must be a number of brown eggshell genes and once you have them, it is difficult to breed them out completely". So how are you concluding that in f3 you have bred out both dominant blue and brown to get white eggs? Is this from experience? I don't mean this as a challenge, rather as a question; as I am working on an olive project myself and when I buy/sell olive eggs the understanding is that they will all hatch out as olive eggers, albeit lighter or darker depending on whether the sire is dark brown or green egg-gened. Interested to hear more about that....Thanks!

Color inhibitors are theoretically possible of course.
Or very big luck that all the brown eggshell genes were segregated out.
Or the breeds you started with did not have that many different brown eggshell genes, but maybe a few very powerful ones. Or a lot of recessive ones.

HTH

 

[nicalandia]

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yeah, all of those scenarios are possible and out of a 1000 hatch of F1 x F1 I would expect at least a few white eggers. IF one of the parents had the brown shell inhibitors, now a F1 x Welsummer/BC Parent would produce BC1s and none of them woulf produce white eggers ofcourse as only one copy of the inhibitors could produce a tinted egg.. now keep crossing back to Parent welsummer/BC and you will breed out the inhibitors ofcourse