The Plymouth Rock Breeders thread

[mithious]

Here are a few chick birds from our other line.



One pullet has nice yellow legs and the other does not. I've looked back at "chick pictures" in my files and I can say that some the chicks just have fleshy legs for awhile. Most all the pullets are smeared in dark shin paint, but some turn yellow early and others take a long, long time to turn yellow. A few don't seem to hold their yellow either. Shrug.

As for feathering, the slower the feathering? The sharper the barring, in my experience. If someone can get quick feathering, with that On/Off gene present and produce crisp barring? They'd be miracle workers in my eyes. I dunno. Fast feathering and sharp, crisp barring just doesn't seem to play nice together. Just my experience. Sloooooooow feathering doesn't quite capture it.

This is where I got the feathering related to barring info from...the rest, is somewhere in the first of this thread, about he genes, although to be honest, it was VERY late and so I might have missed that the two gene's only come from the male...I'm not a geneticist, so am trying to learn this aspect, to the best of my ability...thanks for correcting me on the male having the two genes and not the female

I read threads backwards. So decided to start at the beginning of this thread last ngiht. Tons of great info there! I need a geneticist for a mentor!!!! One that will explain in simpler terms for this old brain

The rest, I got from this thread also, though must not have properly read that it is only the male with the two genes. Thanks again for the correction! Always learning

 

[Fred's Hens]

Sharp barring comes from slow feathering birds. You found a quote of mine from nearly a year ago. What we're trying to do in our project BR is to determine how fast is fast? How slow is slow?

Is the only way to endure 8 weeks of near nakedness and must all high quality Barred Rocks produce pullets that go 36 weeks before beginning of egg laying? I do not universally find those features on top quality Rocks of a century ago. I've studied and re-studied the literature and forgive me, but I remain skeptical. I suggest some of these issues are the result of selection. I'm not sure we know what the variety could be if pushed and selected for greater utility. One pitfall in breeding, it seems to me, is that we can fall prey to selections of slower, and slower and slower birds for the sake of other priorities.

How much slowness must we endure? These are the questions I've asked myself. I don't know if we're any closer to answers, but we're working on them. We're three, almost 4 years into this and so much still lays ahead.


.

 

[mithious]

Weaver, the solid color Rocks, such as the Whites you have and Cindy's Buffs do seem to feather up much more quickly and your physical maturity in size also seems faster.

The Ringlets are a genuinely slooooooow maturing bunch. They take forever to feather. It is indeed the sharp barring, On/Off gene. It's gotta be. But they also take forever to point of lay on the females. 36 weeks is our average. The males take almost a year to mature and judge them at your own risk if you do before 10 months. These are truly old time birds.

I hope we can ask Scott to discuss these issues with his Colonial Rocks. Fertility, hatching vigor, feather rate, maturity rate of both males and females. It would be very informative to know and to compare.

Here's a genetic question, what is the on/off gene? and I can't find the post that talked about the two genes being related to the slow feathering/tight barring...ahhhh my head is gonna explode LOL I thought if I read it again, with the corrected info, I would understand how I misunderstood it????

 

[Fred's Hens]

The Barred Rock apparently has genetics that as the feather is growing out and being colored, think of an inkjet painting crisp, clean lines of black on a white paper. On a Barred Rock from hatchery stock, you barely see barring at all. You just see a mess of cuckoo black and white. Yet, those hatchery quality birds feather out in 4 to 5 weeks.

Not so a crisply barred bird. It is commonly held that super, test pattern crisp barring is produced by birds whose genetics turn on the coloring "abruptly" creating not only crisp barring but smaller, tighter bars, with more them compacted into a smaller area. It is generally thought that this on/off takes time and is associated with a slow feathering bird.

 

[mithious]

Sharp barring comes from slow feathering birds. You found a quote of mine from nearly a year ago. What we're trying to do in our project BR is to determine how fast is fast? How slow is slow?

Is the only way to endure 8 weeks of near nakedness and must all high quality Barred Rocks produce pullets that go 36 weeks before beginning of egg laying? I do not universally find those features on top quality Rocks of a century ago. I've studied and re-studied the literature and forgive me, but I remain skeptical. I suggest some of these issues are the result of selection. I'm not sure we know what the variety could be if pushed and selected for greater utility. One pitfall in breeding, it seems to me, is that we can fall prey to selections of slower, and slower and slower birds for the sake of other priorities.

How much slowness must we endure? These are the questions I've asked myself. I don't know if we're any closer to answers, but we're working on them. We're three, almost 4 years into this and so much still lays ahead.


.

I'm reading all the info, not just your posts, so I can learn, or atleast try to learn the genetic side of all this. I mean if understanding the genetic side of things can help me improve this line, I'm all for stretching my ability to learn this stuff. I only have a 4 year BS in psychology, not even close to an engineering degree, never mind a geneticist, so this is a huge stretch for me, but I really really think it is important to learn this stuff, if I am going to do anything with this line. Am I wrong in that? Is there another way to look at this? Do this, by that I mean improve the breed.

 

[mithious]

The Barred Rock apparently has genetics that as the feather is growing out and being colored, think of an inkjet painting crisp, clean lines of black on a white paper. On a Barred Rock from hatchery stock, you barely see barring at all. You just see a mess of cuckoo black and white. Yet, those hatchery quality birds feather out in 4 to 5 weeks.

Not so a crisply barred bird. It is commonly held that super, test pattern crisp barring is produced by birds whose genetics turn on the coloring "abruptly" creating not only crisp barring but smaller, tighter bars, with more them compacted into a smaller area. It is generally thought that this on/off takes time and is associated with a slow feathering bird.

Thank you

Is it important to know what that gene is? or is it enough to know that is what it is? That would help with the head exploding some

 

[Fred's Hens]

Well, you'll find that most great breeders were not genetic experts at all. I often ask questions of genetic experts, here and elsewhere, and their input to my thinking is greatly appreciated.

That said, and no offense to these great geneticists, but while most of them may understand the science light years of what I'll ever know, but many don't breed birds of note at all.

My advice is to develop a relationship with some of the better genetic gurus. I'll pm you a few names. Most of the greatest breeders I've ever know don't speak "genetics" at any more than a kindergarten level. It did not stop them from knowing through experience, learning from mentors and trying things with their birds.

This is meant to be enjoyable and fun. I've posted this link before. It will demonstrate why I am not in their universe and never will be.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...romelanosis-in-the-sikie-and-ayam-cemani/0_40

 

[DMRippy]

Well, you'll find that most great breeders were not genetic experts at all. I often ask questions of genetic experts, here and elsewhere, and their input to my thinking is greatly appreciated.

That said, and no offense to these great geneticists, but while most of them may understand the science light years of what I'll ever know, but many don't breed birds of note at all.

My advice is to develop a relationship with some of the better genetic gurus. I'll pm you a few names. Most of the greatest breeders I've ever know don't speak "genetics" at any more than a kindergarten level. It did not stop them from knowing through experience, learning from mentors and trying things with their birds.

This is meant to be enjoyable and fun. I've posted this link before. It will demonstrate why I am not in their universe and never will be.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/...romelanosis-in-the-sikie-and-ayam-cemani/0_40

It kills me to read a genetics post telling matter of fact info when they have never breed the birds. For example..... Someone posted about a cross with a barred male.... all the offspring would be barred.... he also claimed they would be sexable by the spots... NO!!!! I can't do that with correctly barred BR much less with single factor roos. I can't tell you how many little cockerels I have sold HOPING for pullets only to turn into cockerels with the tiniest of head spots. Experience is more helpful there with breeding. You also have to know what works in your flock too.... you might see a pattern with breeding your birds that will not hold true for another flock.

 

[racertomtom]

I’m not a geneticist and will probably get the terminology wrong.

In birds, the male is the homogametic sex, having two Z chromosomes (ZZ), and the female is heterogametic, having one Z and one W chromosome (ZW).

In simpler terms, Barring is a sex linked gene. Because barring resides on the sex chromosome the female can only have 1 because she is using one of her sex genes to be a girl. The male can have 1 or 2 because he's not using his sex genes, that's why he's a boy.

I'll comment on the slow feathering gene later since it's getting late and to be honest, I can't even agree with myself on the subject.

 

[racertomtom]

... he also claimed they would be sexable by the spots... NO!!!! I can't do that with correctly barred BR much less with single factor roos. I can't tell you how many little cockerels I have sold HOPING for pullets only to turn into cockerels with the tiniest of head spots. Experience is more helpful there with breeding. You also have to know what works in your flock too.... you might see a pattern with breeding your birds that will not hold true for another flock.

Don't feel bad, I just feed em until I can figure out what they are.